[4qz]

> go on fancier vacations, upgrade your Honda to a Porsche, hire landscaper/housekeeper/dog walker, buy a bigger house, etc.

I work at a FAANG and I will never afford a home. Who is this list for? My senior engineer coworkers live in condos unless they move 2 hours away or have a very high earning spouse

[SturgeonsLaw]

99.99% of the world's population don't live in San Francisco, so it's probably geared towards them

[pbhjpbhj]

Maths: It almost seems like it should be a higher percentage, but 900k/8Billion gives 99.9875% exactly.

[trentgreene]

I don’t think 99.9% of people have the choice between a Honda or a Porsche (… or either of the two), so this list is probably aimed at a much more narrow group.

[nickd2001]

I reckon we could just about run to a Honda if we tried, but the Citroen works fine. So not really feeling the need for it ;)

[caskstrength]

> 99.99% of the world's population don't live in San Francisco, so it's probably geared towards them

Is the situation any better in other big IT-cities in the States (Seattle, NYC) or in Europe (London, Amsterdam, Zurich, Munich)? Some of these are slightly better than SF and some are even worse IMO.

[ghaff]

The geography of the Bay Area makes it harder to escape high housing prices while retaining somewhat reasonable access to pretty much the whole stretch between SF and San Jose. By contrast, go out to the suburbs and exurbs of Boston and--while some are pretty pricey--there are pretty reasonable options on commuter rail and an hour drive from the city. (And many jobs in tech and other fields aren't in the city anyway.)

Yes, housing in the core downtowns is pricey, but get outside the city and there are decent options. This is true of a lot of places. The Bay Area makes it unusually hard to escape high pricing.

[parkingrift]

It’s not as dire in NYC unless you’re exclusively considering Manhattan. And even in Manhattan it’s relatively “affordable” if you’re willing to live in the 160s+. Significantly less than people think, at least.

[caskstrength]

OP wrote about owning a "home" as opposed to his coworkers who live in "condos" which makes me think he meant single-family house. Are you saying that SFH in Manhattan is relatively affordable for average FAANG developer?

[g_sch]

I mean, SHFs barely exist in Manhattan so it's kind of a moot comparison. But the thrust of GP is correct - you can buy a townhome in much of Brooklyn and Queens for less than $1m.

[caskstrength]

Well, it is like saying that in order to live in SF you can just buy a house in Oakland for less than $1m.

[dougmwne]

This sounds like a you problem. Remote tech roles are falling off trees. Wherever you are that FAANG money can’t buy you a house, you definitely don’t need to be there. You are choosing to be in some incredibly unaffordable area. Lucky, if you are in a place like San Francisco, I expect with the exodus of on-site jobs and people, that the housing will be rapidly getting more affordable.

[eddsh1994]

People who work for good companies in lower cost of living environments? I live in Palo Alto and appreciate I’ll never buy here but my colleagues on similar salaries have huge houses with boats and nice cars in other parts of the US. This is the $150/200 mark btw, not FAANG.

[highwaylights]

> This is the $150/200 mark btw, not FAANG.

This is still wild to me.

I’m well into my career (coming close to 25 years):

— I do well when looking for work in that I interview well and get most gigs I go for.

- I trade stability for higher rates working shorter gigs without any of the usual safety net / benefits.

- Comp is top end of the range offered in a relatively well off part of the world.

And yet with all that said, $200k is still an utter pipe dream.

I’m not saying I’m necessarily jealous (I’m sure there’s the downsides I don’t see) but man-oh-man that’s a lot of money.

I’m almost reluctant to ask but what is FAANG comp typically?

[sitkack]

Startups are paying above FAANG for many senior positions. Total comp can be 250-850K, lots in the 400-550k range.

The going contract dev rate is 150/hr (Java/Python).

[bradlys]

> Startups are paying above FAANG for many senior positions.

Citation needed.

[throwawaaarrgh]

After the tax bracket bump its not entirely as amazing as it sounds... there are still a few places in SV and NY that hand out remote salaries on the high end, if you keep looking.

There are also roles where you just get paid way more than other roles without a need for particularly difficult expertise. People who manage very 'important' stuff for example.

[eddsh1994]

Which country are you based in? I can offer advice for Europe and the US :)

[highwaylights]

Europe currently, interested in remote for anywhere.

Would be really curious to hear what’s out there.

[eddsh1994]

Check out contract roles that are EU-friendly in London & angel.co for remote jobs in the bay area that are happy with global hires. I had a contract with a company in SF while living in Oxford for ~160k and know London pays 700+ per day for mid-senior developers. There are contract-specific jobsites out there but I can't google them right now because I'm on a company VPN.

[highwaylights]

Thanks for this!

Could I reach out to you separately so as not to run out of thread depth on here?

(The big question I have on this is if you have a link discussing implications for tax etc. on taking a role from the USA while based in the UK - which is an easier option for me at this time).

[thatfunkymunki]

https://levels.fyi

[tomduncalf]

The thing to note is that the base salary isn’t often too far off from non-FAANG jobs, but the stock grant which usually “vests” over 4 years is what makes the compensation so much higher.

The amount of stock is locked in based on how many shares the dollar amount you’re offered would buy when you start, so if the share price goes up over time then that’s going to be worth more when it vests (which I guess mostly happened in the last decade), but if it drops from when you started it’s worth less (as happened in the last year, so if you started this time last year and the company stock is down 50%, that compensation is worth a lot less now).

I definitely think it’s good to be aware of what compensation at these places looks like, I wasn’t really aware of how significant the stock thing is until recently (but I had a fun career up to now so not to worry!). I guess one of the downsides is that these are often huge companies there’s a reasonable chance you’ll end up maintaining some boring internal system or whatever, so it depends what motivates you.

[highwaylights]

Honestly, as I'm non-US, I think I'm ruled out of those compensation packages (I don't think many offer remote work).

It's disappointing, but it's the reality for a lot of people I'm sure.

[tomduncalf]

Not sure where you’re based but some of the mid-sized companies definitely do hire outside of the US and offer equity (typically places where they have a company presence so they can employ you, and I guess they’ll probably try to have people in sensible time zones) and are remote-first. For example, I’m based in London and my last job was with MongoDB and that was fully remote in EMEA.

[eddsh1994]

Check out angel.co and look for remote startup roles - I've worked with two US startups from the UK prior to moving out here. Some are happy with extra experience & lower end of salary while you'll still have a good multiple.

The alternative to that is contracting - London is a great place to look for that.

[badpun]

How is the traffic and commute time in such cities? I ask as an European who can't fanthom an idea of a large city where most people live in detached houses (and not in apartments or even townhouses) - the city must take up enormous space. Do people commute 30 miles each way to work?

[bluedino]

According to ACS 2010-14 data, the average commuter in the Chicago metropolitan region has a one-way commute of 30 minutes. This figure is slightly above the national average of 26 minutes, but on par with many other large U.S. regions

FWIW a random survey on the internet lists Austin TX, Miami FL, and San Diego CA as the 'most stressful commutes'

[bagels]

Which cities? Silicon Valley? Or people remote working in the Midwest?

If you are making Faang money you can choose a shorter commute. 30 miles is 1-2 hours in silicon valley. My limit is 10 miles/40 mins

[badpun]

American cities in general. If in an average US city, most people live in a detached house, aren't they just a endless sprawl with nightmarish commute times?

[BirAdam]

Yes. American cities are endless sprawl. Yes. American cities have nightmarish commute times. During morning and evening rush, it can take 3 hours to cross the city I live in. The city I grew up in was better, but the same task could still take 30 minutes there, and it was a much smaller city.

[gnz11]

Yes

[tnel77]

“But I can’t live in the midwest” -Them, probably

[eddsh1994]

People can't complain about high salaries not working for you in high COL places. In Atherton a 0.8 acre lot (no house) is on the market for $5.2m lol. If you stop looking for the prestige and high numbers of FAANG you can have a far better salary:COL and get that nice house/cool car.

[newshorts]

A cautionary tale for you:

I was in a similar situation a few years ago, working at FAANG and living in SCV. Wanted a house more than anything.

Eventually, got relocated to a lower COL area and finally accomplished my dream of owning a home.

Inspector didn’t catch a few things, also bought at the peak of housing mania and now we are both underwater and have sunk a large chunk of our savings into making the house safe and livable for our kids.

If we would have stayed in SCV and rented we’d be in a better financial position. However, overall we are happy with our choices given we don’t have to stress about things like keeping a 3yo quiet for the neighbors who live below us.

Not saying a house won’t make you happy, just saying houses are not a complete measure of financial success.

[rpigab]

SCV = Stato della Città del Vaticano? Yeah, the housing market in Vatican City isn't great unless you're military or the Pope.

[oogali]

I think OP means Silicon Valley?

[rpigab]

Thank you, of course I answered Vatican as a joke but I genuinely didn't know SCV stood for Silicon Valley, even if it should have been obvious, if I had thought about it some more.

[oogali]

Neither did I... I took a guess.

I generally see it abbreviated as SV.

[comte7092]

Sounds like FAANG is a trash deal then, tbh.

You could afford a home in most other US cities even with a pay cut from the typical FAANG salary.

[dougmwne]

For real. My 24 year old cousin just bought his first home and he works a low paid blue collar job. The trick is to be in an affordable location.

[illirik]

Exactly! People read "affordable location" and think it means somewhere boring and depressing, like Youngstown or Peoria. There are numerous, wonderful US cities where you can buy a respectable place for under $200,000 - they're just not on the coasts or in the sun belt. Move to West Rogers Park in Chicago and walk to the best Indian food you've ever had, or Brewer's Hill in Milwaukee and walk to a vegan brewery where all beers are $5. If you like the small-town feel, try Holland, MI or Stevens Point, WI. If the winters get you down, you can fly to Maui in January from O'Hare for $400 round-trip, or you could just wait 20 years for CO2 to do its thing.

[Karrot_Kream]

IMO this only changed in the US over the last 5-6 years and accelerated because of COVID and remote tech work. The stigma persists from before when the US had only a handful of fun, young, urban areas to live in. When I entered the workforce there were only a few choices. Now I could see myself living in a whole bunch of places were I starting out my career.

[lodovic]

Fun fact: where I live, many so-called blue collar jobs such as plumbing earn a higher wage than software engineering, due to extreme shortages.

[dougmwne]

Hence why I said low paid, because he's definitely not in one of those jobs.

[dasil003]

Or just rent for a couple years and save up enough to buy a house elsewhere in cash.

[Rebelgecko]

I bought my condo when I was making less money than FAANG interns do. As long as you avoid the Bay Area it doesn't really take "Senior SWE" money (even in places that are high COL relative to the non-Silicon Valley parts of the country)

[xboxnolifes]

*in the middle of SF/NYC/etc. Anywhere else, a FAANG salary will get you home ownership in 1-2 years.

[joshuamorton]

I'm confused by this, you can totally find single family homes in SF for 1.5-2M, which while pricey should be affordable after a few years on a FAANG salary if you aren't already spending a lot on kids. They're just in Sunset or Diamond Heights or Portola or Glen Park, not Noe or Mission.

And even in those areas, you can find two-unit condos in that range.

[thewebcount]

Why do you think that? I know many people working at a FAANG both in SF and LA, and most of them own some sort of home. (Some are condos or townhomes because that’s the lifestyle they prefer - but many are single family homes.) They’re in decent places, too, not 100 miles away or “the bad part of town”. It took a few years of savings, and some of them are dual income, which helps, but between stock that’s been on a rocket ship for the last 20 years and a decently high salary, they do just fine. If you’re not vested yet, you might not have hit the point where things start to take off. It can be pretty dramatic what those RSUs add up to if you aren’t constantly watching their value.

[DiggyJohnson]

Can you explain your expectations around home ownership? I am rarely this flummoxed at a comment..

[SamuelAdams]

They mean they will never own a home in two of the wealthiest cities in the USA - San Francisco or New York. There’s a few other really expensive cities as well. It’s really easy for most properties to list for 1 MM min, even a 3 bed 1 bath house on a quarter acre lot.

The solution is easy, don’t live in an expensive city. Or inherit property from relatives who lived there 50 years ago. Or have a rich spouse.

[gorbachev]

The most common way I've seen it done in New York suburbs is to buy a multi-family home and split it between family. Houses with three generations of family living in them are quite common.

[dusted]

lol, I bought the current house we're living in for under $100k cash, maybe move somewhere reasonable instead of insisting on living in the most expensive place possible?

[tnel77]

Why do you live there then? So many great cities you can live in where you can actually afford a house.