[AYBABTME]

I think they thought they were honest and doing things properly, and didn't realize that their holding of FTT was making them as bad as the other frauds before. I think these ouroboros are complex enough that even main players don't necessarily understand the position they've put themselves in.

[coffeebeqn]

Let’s not treat senior management and owners of a company that has gambled away billions of dollars of customers (and investors) money as kids. They should get jail time from what I’ve read so far.

They were either criminally stupid or did this on purpose. It really wasn’t that complex. This isn’t even close to 2008 complexity since this was all happening within one organization With the same owner SBF.

[SantalBlush]

"Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by greed."

[HPMOR]

“Never assume malice by that which could be explained by incompetence.”

As a caveat, however, SBF did work at Jane Street and graduated Summa Cum Laude from MIT with a Physics degree, so maybe this quote does not apply.

[trollerator23]

Nitpick: There is no such thing as Summa Cum Laude at MIT. Rankings and GPAs are not published, so he just graduated with a physics degree, period.

[totalZero]

Always gives me pause when I hear people say that someone graduated with honors at MIT, even when it's Tony Stark:

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/87387a75-dde7-44ec-bc87-66f4e20...

Or this guy from Why Him:

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/bbc047f6-7417-4eb3-b4fe-064f75d...

[SantalBlush]

Right, which is exactly why I took that quote--which is overused by HN crowd--and changed it to fit the context. But you went and added it anyway.

I won't assume any malice on your part.

[zen21]

1: “Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by greed."

2: “Never assume malice by that which could be explained by incompetence.”

1+2 = 3: “Never attribute malice to that which can be adequately by greed”

[manmal]

Greed can be a form of incompetence - the inability to set goals that are reachable without recklessness or imprudence.

[AYBABTME]

I don't really care whether they're kids of not. I do think it's possible that they step by step ended up in a situation they didn't realize they were getting into. Doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be punished if such a treatment is required.

But again and again, supposedly smart finance folks end up blindsided by retrospectively obvious stuff. There's just too many complicated fabrications on top of one another.

I'm not particularly sanctimonious, I think the average vilain of the day is most of the time just an average person making dumb mistake.

[sillysaurusx]

You’re right, and I see where you’re coming from, but the reality is that this can end with a 50 year prison sentence for SBF. That’s what Wasendorf got for swiping a mere $200M (the largest fraud in history prior to this, according to Animats): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33564752

I think that reality hasn’t set in for most people yet. Especially SBF.

[moralestapia]

Yup, "accidentally criminal" is still criminal.

[lazide]

If by 'they thought they were honest and doing things properly' you think the same for Madoff, then oof.

Actions and results matter. Intentions can easily be bullshit and delusion.

If someone is committing multi-billion dollar fraud, there is a line that was crossed a LONG time ago.

[adastra22]

I read him as saying they thought they were doing honest things.

[lazide]

I was referring to the same miscreants as the poster was.

It’s only plausible to a certain point that they were unknowingly bad actors. They’d have to willingly be deluding themselves.

No one commits multi-billion dollar fraud accidentally.

They’d have to turn a blind eye to something any reasonable person would consider a ‘are we the baddies’ moment. Or two. Or dozens.

As to if it’s documented? One can hope, but I’m not holding my breath. I’m sure there have been many shredder parties (or digital equivalents) happening in many places since the news broke.

[adastra22]

Oh you’d be surprised. I think most people are capable of this kind of fraud. It’s human nature to judge others by their actions, but judge yourself by your intentions.

[lazide]

Capable, yeah. Capable without knowing they’re doing something wrong? Yeah, no.

Most people cross that threshold well before a million bucks.

You can tell by the shape of the lies that are inevitably told. Someone who actually thinks they’re doing something ok won’t go to such lengths to hide important details, or omit specific things that are inevitably omitted.

And in this case, why not just update the TOS to be clear what they’re doing?

Because they know it’s wrong.

What you’re talking about is willful delusion.

Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt, etc.

[skinnymuch]

Yeah and the point is no one sane would seriously say Madoff thought he was being honest. They’re making an analogy between Madoff and SBF being similar/the same.

[AYBABTME]

[2022-11-13] If I may follow up on myself: I didn't know anything about this situation and just commented randomly. It seems obvious a few days later that it was straight up fraud.