[a_shovel]

Saying Singal "obviously" operates in good faith is an exaggeration. Michael Hobbes on Twitter has a few threads regarding Singal where he shows how Singal likes to move the goalposts and accuse people of being "irresponsible" for making straightforwardly true claims (even ones that are supported by his own evidence). [ https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3ARottenInDenmark%20jesse&... ]

[ggreer]

I'm pretty sure it's Hobbes who is acting in bad faith. Most of his links are to things that don't support his claims. For example, he'll claim that puberty blockers are completely reversible, but link to an NHS site that says some long term effects are unknown[1], and though GIDS claims the physical effects are reversible, GIDS was shut down due safety issues.[2]

Hobbes also accused Jesse of recruiting detransitioners from a transphobic website[3][4], but the site in question only allows females to join, so Jesse couldn't have used that site to find the people he interviewed for his article.

Lastly, Hobbes blocks his opponents, then screenshots their tweets and argues against them. This makes it much harder for his targets to respond to him and correct the record. It really seems like he doesn't care about what's true, just what he can get others to believe.

1. https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/15820931910080921...

2. https://web.archive.org/web/20220728150640/https://www.theti...

3. https://archive.ph/cl9U8

4. https://kyschevers.medium.com/telling-the-whole-story-a-clos...

[a_shovel]

Singal claimed that the NHS removed a claim from their website that puberty blockers were reversible. Hobbes showed a screenshot from the NHS website showing that the claim was still there. Singal (and you) changed the topic from whether the NHS made a claim, to whether there were unknown long-term effects of puberty blockers. Hobbes is obviously correct here.

GIDS is being replaced with multiple centers providing similar services primarily due to issues with capacity, extreme wait times, and overcentralization, based on advice from the Cass Interim Report, which also noted issues with inconsistent care. Other organizations, including the Endocrine Society [0] and the APA [1], also describe puberty blockers as reversible.

Your second paragraph doesn't seem to be true. "The site in question" is 4thWaveNow, which is a blog; you don't 'join' it like a forum. I think you've got it confused with the dating website.

Your third paragraph is unsupported.

[0] https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2021/e...

[1] https://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/About-APA/Organiza...

[DanBC]

The unsafeness of the Tavistock clinic had nothing to do with puberty blockers - Tavi didn't prescribe[1] any puberty blockers to any child. And while the clinic provided by Tavistock is closing there will be many other clinics opening. Provision of gender affirming care to children is being expanded.

[1] This is the big problem with threads like these. You can just lie and no-one knows any different because there's so much disinformation being spread. You shouldn't spread disinformation, and you should feel bad about doing so.

The fact that you don't understand the basics (that Tavistock didn't do any prescribing) but you feel confident enough to comment is peak fucking HN. Bunch of dunning kruger cunts.

[wrongo]

Yes they did - and have published on this, for example: https://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0243894

[DanBC]

No, they did not. They only did psychological assessment, and then referred on to endocrinology who would then do their own assessment and decide whether or not to prescribe PBs.

Here's the NHS England stand commissioning contract. On page 17 there's a flow chart, and you can see that after the assessment phase there's a box that says "Refer to Endocrinology Clinic + ongoing GIDS input", and that box exists because GIDS have never prescribed PBs, they referred children on to an endocrinology service who did their own assessment and made their own decision about whether or not to prescribe. Page 18 has a further flow chart that explains the endo referral process. Page 19 describes the referral and separate assessment process used by the endo service. Page 25 gives further details about referral to the endo liaison team.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/gender...

From the link you provide: "A standardised set of psychological questionnaires used in the GIDS clinic was completed at the time young people were deemed potentially eligible and referred to the medical clinic." and "Young people were considered for recruitment after lengthy assessment, spending an average of 2 years and up to 6 years within the GIDS psychological service before being referred to the endocrine clinic for assessment to enter the study." - I mean, come on.

One of the lead authors of the link you've provided: "Gary Butler". He's Professor Gary Butler, who works for the Department of Paediatric and Adolescent Endocrinology, at University College London Hospital NHS Trust. This is the service that provides endocrinology assessment and, if necessary, prescribing.

He doesn't work for Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust.

From one of the references in your link: https://adc.bmj.com/content/103/7/631

> Support for children and adolescents up to the age of 18 years has been provided through the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in London for over 20 years. The GIDS was nationally commissioned by NHS England in 2009 and extended to Leeds in 2012, providing regular outreach clinics in other areas of the UK. Endocrine evaluation and support has been provided through University College Hospital London for over two decades, and Leeds Children’s Hospital since 2013. Care is provided according to an agreed service schedule,3 taking into account international guidance from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)4 and the recent guidelines from the Endocrine Society.5

Puberty blockers would be "endocrine evaluation and support".

If anything, the UK has been an outlier because so few children had access to PBs, far fewer than in other countries. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18667644/

GIDS at Tavistock and Portman never prescribed PBs. That prescribing was done, independently, by endocrinology services in other organisations.

[mustache_kimono]

We can go pretty deep in the weeds in a thread that is AFAIK flagged and dead.

> Saying Singal "obviously" operates in good faith is an exaggeration.

From what I've heard and read of Jesse's, he seems to take great pains to be honest and fair. He seems to me to obviously be operating in good faith. Or as I would expect a curious, thoughtful journalist to act. But, yes, you and others may come to other conclusions.

And, unfortunately, my experiences re: Hobbes's journalism have not been as glowing. They've frankly been disappointing. Hobbes seems to lack the very compassion and empathy Singal seems to obviously have. Hobbes tends to paint what seem to me to be good-faith disagreements as grand moral violations.

But I may need to see more and maybe I'm mistaken?

> Singal likes to move the goalposts and accuse people of being "irresponsible" for making straightforwardly true claims

I think you need to be more specific re: this claim. Unsurprisingly, a link to all the subtweets someone has made about Jesse Singal isn't very helpful.

[a_shovel]

The word "seems" is kinda the crux of the issue here. Singal has the tone of a curious, thoughtful jouralist who enters into research with no pre-established biases, and Hobbes has the tone of a guy who gets into Twitter arguments. The problem is that tone is not important, what's true is important. You can't determinte the truth just through the tone of the person communicating with you. A tone of thoughtful neutrality doesn't make something true, and a tone of belligerence doesn't indicate a lie.

I discussed the example I was referencing in my response to ggreer. Here's a link to the twitter thread, for clarification: https://twitter.com/RottenInDenmark/status/15820924737360076...

I'd like to see an example of what you mean regarding Hobbes. I think that'd help me a lot to understand your position.

[mustache_kimono]

Theres a lot to mine here, but I'm really not going to be the one who gets in a tiff with you about this.

I think you need to step away from the keyboard, dude.

[a_shovel]

Okay, that's just rude.