[hotcoffeebear]

Tom Tom used to charge for map updates, which became a no-go for many. The same thing thing with built-in ones. Toyota asked 60 euro for the map updates and unfortunately no android/ios auto.. i am going between google maps / apple maps. I find routes better in google maps but i love apple maps voice indications better. I still have also a free lifetime update tomtom but it very slow to add destination etc.

[dspillett]

> Tom Tom used to charge for map updates, which became a no-go for many.

There was also an instance when they unceremoniously stopped supporting updates on “old” devices that were not actually that old and were in fact still actively being sold in stores (in the UK at least). I know people who switched to alternatives (the smartphone option in all cases IIRC) and vowed they'd never pay for another TomTom device again after that.

[gambiting]

So I'm not sure what device you have in mind, but the one I mentioned(GO5000) still receives regular and free map updates despite being 12 years old now.

[dspillett]

It was a fair few devices, including some that has been sold as getting lifetime updates (one of those sketchy instances where the lifetime in question is the lifetime of the product and they define the end of that by stopping the lifetime updates): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/42859546.amp

To be fair, perhaps more fair than is deserved IMO, the devices still did (probably still do) get qgps updates so function normally apart from having outdated maps and can, somewhat disingenuously, be said to be still be getting their lifetime updates.

[pletnes]

I seem to recall that a map refresh would be similarly priced to just buying a new one. The device was probably sold as a loss leader. Back then the devices were super nice, I recall thinking, but the business model doesn’t make any sense now, to me. They did have products specific for huge trucks, such as route planning, maybe it makes sense for those use cases still?

[kaushikc]

They quoted me $350 Australian/year for yearly map updates last year. I was hoping they would've humbled a bit in 10 years.

[maxerickson]

How do you know that $350 isn't the reasonable price on their side of it?

It's likely going to be a niche market even if they give the updates away for free (because people will mostly use maps on other devices).

[michaelt]

Well, you can get a base-model tomtom for AU$179 [1]

And the customer's alternatives include "just use year-old maps" and "use google maps" so it's not like tomtom have the customer over a barrel here.

[1] https://www.amazon.com.au/Updates-Lifetime-Smartphone-Messag...

[maxerickson]

Right, but the customer doesn't have TomTom over a barrel either. If producing maps for older devices doesn't net a lot of customers, they either charge quite a bit or don't bother.

The device you link wouldn't net updated maps of Australia. Looks like world map devices are closer to $400.

[cinntaile]

> Tom Tom used to charge for map updates, which became a no-go for many.

This is what led to their demise, no?

[toyg]

No; their demise was the rise of smartphones who can do pretty much everything they can, for free. GPS navigation was commoditized as part of the smartphone arms race.

[cinntaile]

What do you mean no? You're saying the same thing, you just added a step to explain why the alternatives were cheaper (free).

[rat9988]

No, it was not a price point only problem.

[cinntaile]

That's not at all what I am saying? Tomtom's updates were very expensive though. A smartphone with non-free map alternatives won't get you there so it's not the smartphone either. Both developments were necessary, either one on their own isn't sufficient.

[daniel_iversen]

I would say so (that and the smartphone as ppl points out) - they announced subscription service around 2009-2011 from what I can see online and we can see the interest falling drastically since:

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=tomtom

.. that's also when I stopped using them I think, and what's interesting is that once you get into the habit of using a new map+navigation service it seems quite hard to switch or is that just me? (I want to try Apple because I like them more than Google but I'm just so used to Google Maps)

[chipotle_coyote]

> once you get into the habit of using a new map+navigation service it seems quite hard to switch or is that just me?

I don't think it's just you. :) I know a fair number of iOS users who switched to the standalone Google Maps app during the, shall we say, rocky first year of Apple Maps, and who I've never been able to convince to look back -- and these are people who live in the San Francisco Bay Area, where Apple Maps is arguably at its best.

[DonHopkins]

Silicon Valley - "It's Apple Maps bad"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVq1wgIN62E

[devilbunny]

Give Apple Maps a shot in an area you know well. In my experience, GMaps is better in terms of knowing what's around you and the traffic - but AMaps gives much more easily-followed directions and doesn't do silly routes to save five seconds' time.

[DonHopkins]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31582257

DonHopkins 5 months ago | parent | context | favorite | on: TomTom to cut 10% of jobs due to improved automati...

I worked at TomTom in Amsterdam from 2007-2009, and had a fun time and learned a lot working with some smart people at a great company that treated us well and had good leadership.

But TomTom was just on the cusp of a small company turning into a big company.

And the savings and loan crisis was about to cause the economy to collapse.

Then TomTom got into a bidding war with Garmin over Tele Atlas.

So they ended up borrowing a whole lot of money at a really bad time.

Just as the iPhone was hitting the market, and Google and Apple were rolling out free maps and turn-by-turn navigation on smart phones that everybody already had.

I wrote about that earlier in the discussion about Etak:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747015

DonHopkins on Feb 27, 2017 | parent | context | favorite | on: Who Needs GPS? The Story of Etak's 1985 Car Naviga...

"Etak eventually became a part of TomTom, ensuring that its map data, some of which was first digitized back during the Navigator's development in 1984, would live on to this day."

The story of how TomTom and not Garmin ended up owning the data originally digitized at Etak is interesting. At the time, there were only two digital map companies: Tele Atlas (from which TomTom got their map data) and Navteq (from which Garmin got their map data).

From Wikipedia [1]:

"On July 23, 2007, a €2 billion offer for the company by navigation system maker TomTom was accepted by the Tele Atlas board. This was then trumped by a €2.3 billion offer from United States-based rival Garmin on October 31, 2007 initiating a bidding war for Tele Atlas. TomTom responded by upping their bid to €2.9 billion, an offer which was again approved by the board of Tele Atlas. Garmin had been expected to counterbid once again: with Tele Atlas' main global rival Navteq subject to a takeover bid from Nokia, the company had stated that it did not wish both companies to fall into the hands of rivals. However, after striking a content agreement with Navteq through the year 2015, Garmin withdrew its takeover offer, clearing the way for TomTom. On December 4, 2007, TomTom shareholders approved the takeover. The European Commissioner for Competition cleared the takeover in May 2008, and it closed in June."

TomTom (where I worked at the time) was shocked and dismayed that Garmin outbid them by €300 million on Tele Atlas, because while it made a lot of sense for TomTom to buy their own map data supplier, it would have been prohibitively complex and expensive for Garmin, who used Navteq data, to switch map data sources and retool their entire map data digestion, distribution and error correction pipelines.

TomTom was so determined to buy Tele Atlas and keep it out of Garmin's hands, that they raised their bid by €900 million.

In the meantime, Garmin renegotiated their deal with Navteq, so they didn't have to pay as much for the data, and didn't have to switch map suppliers.

The stunt that Garmin pulled off was, in my opinion, an ingenious head-fake that cost TomTom an enormous amount of money, almost a billion euros, and at the same time saved Garmin a whole lot of money by enabling them to renegotiate a better deal with Navteq, who was faced with losing their major customer if they didn't lower their prices.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tele_Atlas

[gorbachev]

That's definitely why I stopped using TomTom. Like gambiting, I really liked their product. They were compact, fast and the UX was great. But Google Maps is free.

[rapind]

> But Google Maps is free.

We need a new alternative word for "free" when it comes to advertising companies. Something short to say "the cost is too abstract and indirect to understand fully or describe, but does impact society at large". Maybe "free-ish"?

[frankfrankfrank]

That is all already assumed by the word free, if one understands it, which most do not.

Nothing is truly free as people commonly conceptualizer it in their mind. Just alone receiving something at all comes with strings, even if they are not apparent. There is a term that describes this issue rather well in German, “vogelfrei”. It refers to being as free as a bird, which is assumed to be a great thing, but it also means you are free to be hunted and predated.

Free is also the theme of a deal with the devil. I will self-censor here a bit about what is the devil, because the devil’s censorship is more consequential than if I do it to myself for the time being.

[ferongr]

Google Maps is "free" in the same way healthcare is "free" in many countries. The usage of the word seems fine.

[caf]

Closer to free-to-air TV.

[saiya-jin]

There is no free lunch. Its more like you expect some idealized absolutism in market economy from people who need to eat and pay their mortgages. Its uncommon to meet an adult with such expectations, its mostly reserved for children up to certain age.

[rapind]

> It’s uncommon to meet an adult with such expectations

I don’t think this is an accurate assumption. Many adults probably have a nagging feeling about this version of free, I doubt most of us can accurately describe the cost (and most wouldn’t care to try).

I mean it really does “feel” free in that the costs are so abstract and externalized. In fact I’d argue that it has completely changed our perspective on pricing, value, and entitlement.

Anyways, total tangent to the main topic.

[diydsp]

Hear, hear! One suggestion: costs a drop of blood.

[teddyh]

More like a pound of flesh.

[yencabulator]

"Costless" or "zero-payment".

[TulliusCicero]

Man, I remember in the mid 2000's when the Toyota dealer said like $600 to update my mom's Sienna's GPS.