[Maursault]

They were fired for cause, namely, insubordination. The resistance to vaccination is entirely political. The mandate was not, but instead in the interests of public safety and health. Easing the mandate for special cases was a terrible decision. The decision to ease the mandate should be reversed, not the mandate itself. So quickly they've forgotten the piles of bodies of COVID victims in NYC.

[xfitm3]

A growing number of doctors have threatened to withhold treatment from the unvaccinated, sparking backlash from doctors and bioethicists who say such sentiments violate the Hippocratic Oath. Those critics are even more troubled by the silence from professional organizations tasked with upholding medical ethics.

The mandate should have never existed.

[ClumsyPilot]

> They were fired for cause, namely, insubordination

The idea that you can order someone to perform a medical procedure because they work for you is disguisting.

Where does this end?

[Maursault]

> Where does it end?

It ends with your survival. Vaccination isn't surgery, it's an extremely minor medical procedure that reduces or eliminates the risk of contracting a disease. During a deadly global pandemic, refusing vaccination is nothing short of suicidal. 97M Americans were infected and more than a million died. There were over 630M cases globally, and over 6.5M died due to COVID. The People have the stronger right to not be infected with COVID by you than your right to be infected. No one ever has any right to spread infection, not even libertarians.

[gruez]

>It ends with your survival. Vaccination isn't surgery, it's an extremely minor medical procedure that reduces or eliminates the risk of contracting a disease. During a deadly global pandemic, refusing vaccination is nothing short of suicidal. 97M Americans were infected and more than a million died. There were over 630M cases globally, and over 6.5M died due to COVID.

Way to dodge the question. Also, I think you're missing the point. I don't think OP or most other anti vax mandate people think that the covid vaccine is a risky procedure, or that the public is better off on net for it. They're against it because it sets a precedent for government to mandate medical procedures.

>No one ever has any right to spread infection, not even libertarians.

You literally do, though. It's not against the law to get on a packed subway while you're sick as a dog, for instance.

[Maursault]

> They're against it because it sets a precedent for government to mandate medical procedures.

This is just a part of what is so ridiculous about their objections and reveals ignorance and a misunderstanding of law. The government isn't required to establish precedent here because it is already the law of the land.[1][2][3] That said, precedent has been very well established for a very long time.[4]

[1] https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/cha...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act#Emerg...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Service_Act

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...

[triceratops]

> it sets a precedent for government to mandate medical procedures

Does it, though? Just because the government can mandate employees be vaccinated as a condition of continued employment, doesn't mean they can mandate employees be sterilized (for instance). No reasonable person would say the second follows from the first. Law isn't code.

[ClumsyPilot]

> The People have the stronger right to not be infected with COVID by you than your right to be infected.

The proper branch of government to decide this is Congress passing a law, not each major making it up as they go along.

It is definately distopian for employers to decide anything on this matter -they are not sibject to dempcratic scruitiny.

And there are many methods of reducing covid infection avaliable - installing air purifiers, improving ventillation in schools, Upper-Room Ultraviolet Germicidal Irradiation (UVGI).

If situation is so serious, whu are none of those being mandated? Now we know current vaccines give you immunity for like 6 months and new variants appear very rapidly.

[Maursault]

> The proper branch of government to decide this is Congress passing a law, not each major making it up as they go along.

Congress did decide this already by passing legislation a century ago granting temporary increased powers to the executive in event of national emergency and its declaration.

> It is definately distopian for employers to decide anything on this matter -they are not sibject to dempcratic scruitiny.

Government employment is already dystopian and private employers can have any requirements they like short of discriminating against religion, race, disability, etc. There are no federal protections for political disposition.

> And there are many methods of reducing covid infection avaliable - installing air purifiers, improving ventillation in schools, Upper-Room Ultraviolet Germicidal Irradiation (UVGI).

The virus was already circulating due to unpreparedness and slow reaction by the administration in office. Had we seen a two week stay home order in February, the crisis would likely have been averted, but the executive was overly concerned about the economy, which tanked anyway regardless of putting 300M+ Americans at risk of infection, illness and/or death.

> If situation is so serious, whu are none of those being mandated? Now we know current vaccines give you immunity for like 6 months and new variants appear very rapidly.

Again, COVID was already circulating by late February 2020, and if two vaccinations a year are required from now until the end of time, it is still a very small price to pay, a minor inconvenience at worst with the benefit of increased resistance to infection, severe illness, hospitalization, and/or death.

[ClumsyPilot]

> private employers can have any requirements they like

The term used was 'insuburdination' - disobeying legitimate command of employer.

If employer can command you to vaccinate, then they can alsi command you to have windom teeth removed. They can command you to tatoo a barcode on your forehead.

[Maursault]

False analogy and exaggeration fallacy, as wisdom teeth are neither deadly nor contagious, and requiring vaccinations does not mean they get to require orthodontics. All employers have wisely required their employees get vaccinated, as one sick employee can decimate the whole company and put it out of business. You don't have to comply if you're antisocial and don't care if you get sick and die nor who you take with you, go ahead and revel in your entitlement, but you'll no longer work there while you do it. Employers usually have dress and grooming codes also, this is nothing new, so they may require a haircut, shave, bathing, etc., but none will require a barcode tattooed on your forehead, but even if they did, you could always refuse and quit. There is no problem here other than narcissism, and no employer will require you to be evaluated and treated, but you may avail yourself of the health insurance your employer provides to treat your mental illness and mitigate the obvious issues with ego that strain every relationship in your life.

[ezekiel68]

Not at all. We require school children to undergo medical procedures before they may participate in city-funded education. The tone of alarm is unwarranted. This is not a slippery slope situation.

[ls15]

> This is not a slippery slope situation.

I think it is. Governments aren't that trustworthy if you ask me.

[Maursault]

The paranoia is a bit too late. Emergency powers were established by Congress a century ago, and at least 60 national emergencies have been declared since. In New York State, a state of emergency declaration permits the governor to direct local officials and state agencies, and to suspend state and local law or regulation to facilitate disaster response efforts. If there ever was a slippery slope, it has long since been descended many times.

[ls15]

I am negotiating my life, not the ones of my great-grandparents.

[Maursault]

Then you should have been there back in March of 1789. Government is for those who participate, not those who whine about it after the fact. You certainly aren't required to abide by laws or social contract if you don't value the liberties and protections granted by the Constitution and US citizenship.

[stjohnswarts]

What happens when a virus comes along that kills at a higher rate, say 35%? You're saying people should be willing to work alongside others when there is a 35% chance of a pandemic level virus killing you because a peer thinks science is dumb?

[briandon]

I think you've gotten your hypothetical scenario a bit scrambled.

Given a safe and effective vaccine, you and your vaccinated coworkers would either not become infected at all or would experience very mild symptoms and be left with supercharged immunity (immunity from your vaccine + immunity from infection). Your dumb, science-hating coworker would suffer much worse symptoms and maybe die (a little over 1 in 3 chance given the 35% fatality you postulate).

Your vaccine, first and foremost, is supposed to protect you.

But with covid that is not at all what we are seeing.

This was especially painfully clear in places with strongly-enforced "vaccine passport" regimes during the period they were in force before being abandoned. The vaccinated spent time with other vaccinated and were infecting and being infected by one another and birthing new, more transmissible vaccine-evading variants of the virus. Vaccine efficacy actual goes negative (i.e. vaccine recipients more susceptible than unvaccinated persons after a few months: "Vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infection with the Omicron or Delta variants following a two-dose or booster BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 vaccination series: A Danish cohort study" https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v...) and vaccine recipients are infected and infectious for at least as long as unvaccinated persons (e.g. "Duration of Shedding of Culturable Virus in SARS-CoV-2 Omicron (BA.1) Infection" in NEJM https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35767428/).

[Blahagun]

>So quickly they've forgotten the piles of bodies of COVID victims in NYC.

What are talking about? What piles of bodies?

[tb_technical]

If you believe that punishing political dissidents is an acceptable way to operate, your just priming your political enemies to become brown shirts.