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by ozzythecat 1341 days ago
> The same Times investigation reported the company “intentionally limited upward mobility for hourly workers,” according to David Niekerk, a former Amazon HR Vice President.

It’s not just for hourly workers. I was actively coached on holding promotions as a carrot. My leadership team would commit to unrealistic dates, taking input and estimates from dev teams but hand wave it.

Amazon applies pressure on L7 and L6 software development managers to deliver. They in turn apply pressure to their engineering teams.

We had specific projects where we easily burned out dozens of engineers. They all left within a 1-2 month window of each other.

I can’t tell you how many SDEs were promised that getting some project delivered is key to their promotion. These people would kill themselves working every night, every weekend, coding, writing documents, and so on. They’d get very little in return if anything.

I saw several successful launches, where specific promotions were held back because of nit picks on some engineering decision, which the whole group agreed on, including Principals and Sr. Principal engineers.

It’s just a sweat shop. And the Indian devs work their ass off out of fear of getting PIP’d and with their work authorization, they lose their job means they have to leave the country.

11 comments

> And the Indian devs work their ass off out of fear of getting PIP’d and with their work authorization, they lose their job means they have to leave the country.

This matches what I saw at Nike. Though it was a bit less extreme, it was the same dynamic. Indian-born workers got paid half what the American-born workers did for the same SWE jobs. And Indian workers couldn’t complain or push back against unrealistic expectations because getting fired meant getting deported. It’s a captive, exploitable labor force. It’s really messed up.

Same for us Europoors.

Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), meanwhile you're being paid less than half of what the American engineers earn at the same level.

But they know there's so few options in Europe so they set the salaries according to "local market conditions".

> Same for us Europoors.

Mate, it isn't quite nearly the same for Europeans.

It is. We're getting paid peanuts compared to our American counterparts and we do the same work. What's worse is we pay higher taxes. The only way this changes is by European tech workers standing together and demanding matched salaries.
The point is that Indian workers are held hostage due to threat of deportation / returning home. European remote workers still live at home and have much more job mobility.
European workers face the same threat in the USA...
But the flip side is you don't have to save $,000s for your kids college tuition, generally much lower property tax and cheaper healthcare.
> But the flip side is you don't have to save $,000s for your kids college tuition, generally much lower property tax and cheaper healthcare.

Irrelevant. Just because you work for a US company that does not mean your kids should go to US colleges.

Yes but you do not face deportation right? Infact if you were to move to the us on a H1B yould get your gc in a couple of years. GCs (for Indian born) are like a 25 year wait! Doesn't matter your citizenship. Govt perpetuated racism my friend!
It's really fascinating how it is so much easier to understand the problems we face but so much harder to wrap our minds around the problems that other people face.
Well it's fair that your payment is adapted to the cost of living in your country/area.
No it isn't. You're doing the same work. It is fair to get paid the same for the same work.
In terms of compensation maybe (I'd say Indians in USA generally make more than EU devs), but you don't fear being fired and deported.

That said, Russian and Chinese developers had the same happening in companies in the UK.

... Am I the only one looking at American companies offering me 3-digits salaries and going "holy shit, that's a really good deal"?

In my case, the company is extremely accommodating and doesn't schedule reunions at hours that are inconvenient for me, but even if they did, I'd still consider it worth it for the compensation they give out.

I dunno. Maybe I could get an even better deal if I pushed hard or if I unionized or whatever, but right now I just look at the fact that I'm getting 5x what a middle-school teacher gets while doing way less work, and I just... don't feel the anger?

(maybe other american companies pay a lot less, though)

3 digits? So up to $999/year? That sounds extremely low. In the US salaries are done per year, so a 6-figure salary is >=$100,000/year.

Do you mean as an hourly wage? That would be $200,000+/year and a 6-figure salary.

I imagine they mean three digits above the first set of zeroes.
Right, I meant 6 digits.

I think I meant "3 digits before the K".

Hourly would be $2,000,000+/year at that rate
Well, I guess I'd be fired quickly because between 7 and 8 PM CET I put my kids to bed, usually fall asleep too.
> Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET), meanwhile you're being paid less than half of what the American engineers earn at the same level.

Joining late meetings and being paid typical local rates is hardly the same as being paid half the local rates and facing deportation.

The former sucks, but the latter is unconscionable.

That's ridiculous - that's 11am for them, well within their work day, but well outside yours.

I'm lucky that we have a "We'll dial into meetings slightly earlier, if you can dial in slightly later" entente and so it's rare for meetings with west coast to go past 18:00 GMT.

If you were to pick where would you choose to live? It’s very much a trade off, salaries are higher in the US, but the quality of life is piss poor compared to anywhere in Europe. Healthcare is terrible and expensive, Education is lousy and expensive, housing is expensive and city life, outside of a couple of cities, is mediocre (car centric, no culture, segregated). Oh and you are at-will employed, which means you are one phone call away from getting fired on the spot.

For context, I’m a European in a US city. I’m not sure for how long I’ll be able to stay here.

Same for us in Bay Area with 7 AM calls to talk to our euro brethren. It is not all rosy.

And with the on call shift (when on call, not every week) going till 6:30 pM, sometimes it is 12 hour work days by design.

on the other hand, they don't bug us much during the day with micro management so it is not all bad.

Hehe. 12 hours!

In India it’s routine (in fact standard) for US companies to have the Indian on-call person for 24x7 on-call. Rarely companies have follow the sun policy. Very few! Definitely not Ubers and Amazons.

And Indian managers are the enforcers of this - it’s probably one of the only significant USP these managers have “I’ll get it done by same engineers at the lower Indian rates“.

US HR and leadership wash their hands off the problem - “oh, we give you full ownership, you should decide and own this” :)

>Joining meetings at Seattle time (like 7-8pm CET),

In which country are you? We Europoors usually have labor laws to protect us from having to work so late. Where I live we have core working hours in our contract, 10:00 to 16:00, any work requests after that are voluntary for the employees. Is that not something you can use to push back on this?

Yeah, but good luck enforcing that with no trade union, nevermind if you're aiming for a promotion, etc.

Like real worker power comes from having good economic conditions and strong trade unions - the American engineers have far more bargaining power, because they can easily get competing $150k-250k offers which are unimaginable in Europe.

Labour laws do not apply if you're freelancing, which you have to do most of the time for US companies.
Dozens of my Indian friends who work in WITCH companies in overseas locations are actually quite happy with their salaries. They are dying to work in overseas projects.

Guess they are more than happy being a part of captive, exploitable force.

You can be happy working at a lower salary, doesn't mean that its not exploitative or that it distorts the labor market. Especially with the knowledge that the company holds your residency in their hand.
What does WITCH stand for here? Haven't seen that acronym before
The first company that came to mind was Wipro, which led me to this:

W- Wipro I- Infosys T- TCS C- Cognizant H- HCL A- Accenture India.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27571707

Out of that list, working horrible hours at Amazon looks preferable.
I bet they’d be even happier if they were paid the same as American workers, seeing as they’re doing the same job.

If a minimum wage worker happens to enjoy what they do, that doesn’t mean that we should all settle for minimum wage. Your argument is toothless and blatantly anti-worker.

Same with Walmart
Reminds me of a memorable quote from "halt and catch fire" that changed my workplace-attitude forever: “I’m so sick of hearing about the future” “What is that?” “The future is just another crappy version of the present. It’s some … it’s some bribe people offer you to make you do what they want instead of what you want.”

It stopped working (mostly overtime) on promises that were impossible to keep. In return I got more sleep, social life and very recently a different job.

Great show!!
> It’s just a sweat shop.

Amazon engineer salaries are in the 90th+ percentile in the tech industry -- let's not bother comparing them to the typical American's income. They have almost unlimited mobility in their industry: They can find a job elsewhere anytime they want.

I remember you mentioning elsewhere that in 10 years of working at Amazon you're now financially independent. This isn't the outcome you usually see in a sweat shop.

I don't disagree that they have a culture of treating employees as expendable and are a harder place to work for than some other big tech companies but at some point a little perspective on your own privilege is healthy.

The dollars per hour worked ratio is trash at Amazon though.

All amazonians would jump to Google if they could. The reverse is quite rare.

Trash compared to google. Compared to the average american wage it's not the same ballpark.
> Amazon engineer salaries are in the 90th+ percentile in the tech industry

FANG engineers are typically in the 99th percentile of tech excellence. Amazon engineers are not well paid when compared to professionals of the same league. Amazon SDE1s in Austin, Texas have a salary of around $120k/year and new hires have a total compensation package of around $160k/year. In Europe salary ranges for the same role go from €80k/year in northern countries and €40k/year in southern European countries. Check Glassdoor.

We're discussing positions and professionals which compete in a global stage.

Amazon is far from well paid for this sort of position. It's one of the key factors why Amazon SDEs tend to bail out after 2 or 3 years. They are smart enough to not bother with high stress, low-paying jobs .

Amazon almost certainly isn't targeting the 99th percentile in their recruiting. The bulk of their software positions are interchangeable, likely by design.

They still offer pretty much the highest total comp and the best job prospects for 80th to 90th percentile graduates out of anywhere that I know of.

> Amazon is far from well paid for this sort of position. It's one of the key factors why Amazon SDEs tend to bail out after 2 or 3 years. They are smart enough to not bother with high stress, low-paying jobs .

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/amazon/salaries/software-en...

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/apple/salaries/software-eng...

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/google/salaries/software-en...

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/software-...

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/microsoft/salaries/software...

Amazon is middle of the pack for big tech in total compensation. We don't need to speculate or speak in hyperbole. They certainly are not a "low-paying" job. The OP didn't stay in a low-paying job for 10 years and certainly didn't gain financial independence selling their Amazon stock because it was a low-paying job.

> We had specific projects where we easily burned out dozens of engineers

"Amazon" is named after the rainforest, and like the rainforest, developers are an infinite resource that you can burn down forever and there will never be any consequences .. until somehow you run out.

Really the only solution to this is for people to withdraw their labour - not just unionization but refusing to work for them in the first place.

I straight up refuse to do phone interviews with them and force them to move me directly to an onsite (which I won't study for) just so that I can waste their engineers time and maybe have a tiny chance of stroking my ego by getting a FAANG offer.

No FAANG offer yet, but by my calculations, Amazon has wasted 5 digit sums on assesing me.

Bezos made it personal with how he treated my partner while they worked for him, so I'll have my petty revenge one way or another...

I sympathise, but wasting 5 digits of Bezos' paper net worth, is like someone trying to take revenge on most people here by a dime.

"But for me, it was Tuesday", as the trope is called.

What an incredibly stupid way to run a company.
It’s actually not stupid. It’s genius. If you can do it at scale without damaging the company’s reputation, you’ve won the lottery.

You make big promises to employees, maybe give a carrot to a very select few. Everyone else will either accept the long hours and grueling culture or they’ll leave, and if they leave, they’ll go before their RSU compensation vests. So the other thing you do is weigh compensation heavily on RSUs instead of salary. If you leave before the 4 year vest, you get massively screwed and walk away with a small fraction, since vests don’t really kick in until years 3 and 4.

Now here’s the kicker. If the company does well and the value of your RSUs to up, you get nothing extra. You can get promoted and if your existing RSUs are putting you near or at the bottom of the next compensation band, you take more responsibility but without any meaningful compensation increase.

Now if the company does poorly, you’ll get extra RSUs, in 1.5 to 2 years out. You can hang around for that carrot, but they’ll work you like a machine. And it’s not just the labor. It’s the gaslighting and sociopathic behavior - “you’re so great at X, but you really didn’t do a, b, and c. You’re really just being your own bottleneck. Oh you’re working extra hours? Your fault for not scaling yourself better.”

> If you can do it at scale without damaging the company’s reputation

Everyone I know who’s worked for Amazon has said the money was great but everything else absolutely sucked. And they all held out doing whatever they had to in order to get by until they vested, and we’re instantly out.

I don’t think Amazon has a good reputation.

Amazon has millions of employees. At this point, if you burn out too many you start running out of people to burn out.
1.4 million, and the vast majority of those are low-skill, low-wage employees who are in no way related to the situations being discussed in this thread.
When I was at the halfway house out of prison, not 1 person went to work at Amazon's warehouse. We went to less pay sorting human waste at the recycling plant in 120 heat before that job, because everyone knows how bad it is. Good luck keeping your labour requirements met Amazon.
> It’s actually not stupid. It’s genius.

It's genius if you don't have a shred of ethics left in your bones.

It’s actually really stupid.

Not having ethics/empathy is actually _really dumb_ way to run a company.

They end up making a lot of people miserable. Eventually, all of the technology, market advantage yadda yadda catches up. IBM, Yahoo, heck even Meta/Facebook. Amazon won’t last.

But in their wake, they leave behind very different testimonials.

Working people to a grind has its obvious needs in times of crisis — I mean, that is literally what nations do via conscription in times of war. Everybody knows that.

But prop that culture up in a so-called attempt to stave off laziness, rest-and-vest or whatever and you’ll end up in state of perpetual war: a bleak, stupid world not even worth living in, let alone worth dying for.

To quote Keynes, in the long run we're all dead.
To quote Braveheart, "Every man dies. Not every man truly lives"

Or, as St Ignatius quoted to St Francis Xavier, "What does it profit a man of he gains the entire world, but suffers the loss of his own soul?"

That's a bit rich. Everyone on this forum will cry themselves hoarse about how they should only have to confirm to the minimum of their agreements. How is it any surprise that these same people, placed in a position of power, continue to act congruent to the belief that legality is morality.
It's ethical too, because the terms of the deal are given to the employee up front, and if they're the kind of person who can do SWE at Amazon, it's nowhere near their only job option. Nobody forces them to take it, and they're not hurting for jobs.

People opt in to this. They choose it over all of their other options because they believe it to be better than their other choices.

Hello Neoclassical Economics: Humans are rational actors in an ideal market, in which supply and demand is rationalizing out anything bad.

Is that really the world we live in? Have you met rational humans? Are we living in ideal markets?

Truth is, bad situations of all sorts are springing up and remaining in place long-term. A closer look at each individual issue (as done in this thread) reveals complex factors that need to be adressed. Using a simplistic model from economics to ignore any and all ethics (term used loosely for any attempt to do what's right) is not valid imo.

You seem to be confusing the definition for "moral" with the definition for "ethical".
But it’s not. You can see here now that everyone is aware of these bad practices by amazon. This means less people apply and even lesser accept the position. This leads to more time and resources taken for hiring and giving higher wages eventually to compete.

You can see that even though amazon mass hires candidates, they still have to shell out more salaries than say Google and Microsoft. It’s easier to fix bad salary+good wlb reputation (by increasing salary) than fixing good salary + bad wlb reputation (idk how they can even do it).

> It's actually not stupid. It’s genius.

Not if the secret's out, one would imagine?

The secret has been out for over a decade. Yet Amazon still get new hires.
It’s pretty well known in tech. I never respond to amazon HR. Been doing that for 5 years now.

They are running out of ppl to hire. Now, to figure out how to short amazon… maybe they last another 5 years… before they just implode.

Plenty of new grads every year
You will eventually run out of people to screw over.
Further, about a quarter of workers are annotated in Ivy as "Do Not Promote." They don't know who they are. I don't know why they get put on that list.
> according to David Niekerk, a former Amazon HR Vice President.

That isn't a nobody. He was a major HR guy for Amazon for over 15 years. I knew his name in passing when I was working there, and met his daughter who was a rising star at the warehouse in Phoenix.

Wild to hear him speaking out against Amazon when he honestly built a lot of the system.

This sounds so sad.
The levels stuff is so silly. Like Jeff Bezos (or Mark Zuckerberg, or Larry Page, or Steve Jobs, or…) give a shit.
lol this is hilarious. We are talking about the highest paid people in the world here.. "sweat shop"
Just because it's well paid doesn't mean it's not greuling work.
There is a difference between working hard and getting paid exceptionally well for it verses borderline slave labor.

Comparing one of the most sought out, well paid, safe, in demand jobs in THE WORLD to being in a sweatshop is asinine and extremely arrogant.

Same shit happening at UK based finance firms. More than half of the employees are visa slaves.
Funny, I find that PIP makes me work my ass off and not the other way around.