[wonderwonder]

Maybe true, but I'm not looking for solutions to those things. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have solved them. California still has all the same issues. I specifically don't want to be treated as a racist in training by taking a million anti discrimination classes or be insulted by a class telling me to "sit in my shame". In addition I don't want schools to have the power to treat kids as different genders and not alert the parents. Nor do I want teachers to be able to promote transgenderism or homosexuality as a viable option for kids. If the child is gay or transgender on their own, so be it. School should not be the realm to promote it or suggest it.

[zzzeek]

> I specifically don't want to be treated as a racist in training by taking a million anti discrimination classes or be insulted by a class telling me to "sit in my shame".

it seems like this class your job had you take is a real source of trauma for you. While I think I know what someone would have meant by "sit in your shame" (they meant, if someone tells you something you said/did was offensive, just drop it, don't fight them on it), it's certainly not something you can expect white people who have never thought about any of this stuff to just nod their heads in agreement. it seems like the people doing the class are probably not well trained in how to do this kind of thing because if it leaves the students more hostile than when you started, that is likely counterproductive. But bigger picture, that you had a bad diversity class at your job is not the main issue as far as racism is concerned, it's the ongoing institutional racism itself that has a much more harmful effect on the actual victims. Like, someone told you to "sit in your shame", they didn't kneel on your neck until you were dead because they felt like it, or send you to prison for 12 years for filling out a form incorrectly. There's some proportionality to be considered here.

> In addition I don't want schools to have the power to treat kids as different genders and not alert the parents.

FOX News propaganda. this is not a thing

> Nor do I want teachers to be able to promote transgenderism or homosexuality as a viable option for kids.

transgenderism and homosexuality are not "options". you can't "decide" to be trans or gay. you are born that way. Surely, as someone who claims they have been a "liberal Democrat", you accept.... gay rights at least?

> School should not be the realm to promote it or suggest it.

FOX News propaganda. not a thing. Saying that "gay people exist" is not equivalent to "promoting it". If OTOH you think kids should be raised in complete ignorance that some people marry others of the same gender or wish to live their lives as other genders, then again, the "liberal Democrat" label really doesn't apply, that's a homophobic and bigoted opinion.

[wonderwonder]

I don't watch Fox news.

New Hampshire school district says it will not disclose to parents if their kids come out as trans at school and will lie to them if need be. https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/school-di...

California school plans how to mislead parents and scolds parents for using wrong pronouns https://kmph.com/amp/news/local/mom-scolds-california-school...

I could go on and on with these.

I'm pro gay marriage and want trans people to be able to transition if they want. What I have no interest in is anyone presenting either as an acceptable option to my kids. If they end up gay, so be it ill love them the same but no one should be putting those thoughts in their heads.

I'm white but also a jew, as I said in another comment, I have had stones thrown at me as a kid for it. I would never want my coworkers to have to take classes on anti semitism because it assumes they are potential anti semites. That is insulting. I have had calm informative conversations over beers with open anti semites, I'm fine. It did not bother me in the least because I'm not fragile. People are entitled to their opinions, right or wrong.

Every one is entitled to live their lives and raise their kids as they see fit barring some rigidly defined abuse. Parents not some teacher making 35k a year are the ultimate decider in kids lives; to push for anything else is insane and gives government and random people with teaching certificates an unholy amount of power. You seem to want to police people's minds and demand that every one adhere to your world view or they are terrible people. Most people just want to live their lives and be left alone. We don't care about movements or reparations for things we had nothing to do with. Raise your kids how you want and everyone else can do the same.

This is not Iran, we don't need a morality police. America is and will continue to be the greatest country on earth because of individual freedom and our at least historical ability to agree to disagree with each other.

[sure_about_that]

No examples from Florida, the state being discussed. The two "articles" you did provide are sourced from the same author at the same publication "The National Desk" (owned by Sinclair Broadcasting). One the sources they use is The Epoch Times, which is not a reputable publication. Interesting source material for a self-proclaimed "Democratic party voter".

==What I have no interest in is anyone presenting either as an acceptable option to my kids.==

The alternatives are (1) pretending it doesn't exist or (2) presenting is as an unacceptable option. Do you prefer to pretend it doesn't exist?

==I would never want my coworkers to have to take classes on anti semitism because it assumes they are potential anti semites. ==

I don't follow. Everyone is a potential anti-Semite. If you aren't then the class shouldn't bother you. It's the same as the "shame" exercise. If you have no shame about your actions, why would it bother you?

==You seem to want to police people's minds and demand that every one adhere to your world view or they are terrible people.==

By banning books and outlawing what teachers can teach?

==This is not Iran, we don't need a morality police.==

And yet, we have Ron DeSantis, your guy, saving us from things that weren't being taught to kids in the first place. I couldn't think of a better example of morality police.

[wonderwonder]

Why would I need examples in florida, the entire reason I stated I am voting for Desantis is to prevent there being florida examples. What does them being from the same source matter? Are you saying they are invalid? If your chosen media outlet does not cover certain news is it not news?

"I don't follow. Everyone is a potential anti-Semite. If you aren't then the class shouldn't bother you. It's the same as the "shame" exercise. If you have no shame about your actions, why would it bother you?"

Your argument is basically "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear"

I assume you are a proponent of stop and frisk. Everyone is a potential criminal, if they have nothing to hide then they should have nothing to fear from getting searched right?

The fact that you would defend being treated like a potential racist or antisemite is strange to me. Whats next? Everyone is a potential pedophile so everyone's web traffic should be monitored? You are on a slippery slope to 1984 but you think the people from the book in control are the good guys.

Banning books? Are there certain books that Desantis has made illegal to possess in Florida? Or are you just spouting nonsense to make removing certain books from schools seem nefarious? Can I stock the local elementary school with penthouse magazines? If you are answering no, then you are banning books. Of course teachers should not be able to teach whatever they want, to argue otherwise is insane. Are you good with teachers teaching the holocaust never happened or the bell curve? There is a curriculum for a reason.

You are parroting talking points you see on social media without exploring the topics any further. Funny thing is I bet we follow a lot of the same left leaning people on twitter but the things they say have driven me to the right while you agree with them. I think most of the right wing social and traditional media personalities are idiots. My shift to the right has almost entirely been driven by the content of liberal twitter accounts and DEI classes I have had to take.

I have openly stated I think Desantis is a jerk and I disagree with many of his stances. On the points that are driving my vote I agree with him. 1. Not teaching homosexuality and transexuality as an option to school kids. This is not a topic for school. 2. Not treating white people as racist by default. 3. Not discriminating in anything by race 4. Not punishing people for the content of their minds 5. Parents are the ultimate deciders for their kids, the school has no say on what is best for them if it conflicts with the Parents wishes

This thread has gone on far to long, so calling the game. Lets agree, I'll vote however I want and treat everyone as if they are good by default and you vote for whoever you want and treat everyone as if they are suspected racists and anti-semites by default.

All the best to you and yours. I wish you a long and happy life.

[sure_about_that]

Yes, the Epoch Times is an invalid “news” source.

== You are parroting talking points you see on social media without exploring the topics any further. Funny thing is I bet we follow a lot of the same left leaning people on twitter but the things they say have driven me to the right while you agree with them. I think most of the right wing social and traditional media personalities are idiots. My shift to the right has almost entirely been driven by the content of liberal twitter accounts and DEI classes I have had to take.==

I’m not on Twitter or any social media (besides HN). Must be nice to know everything about everyone without even having to bother with asking.

You gave me a whole profile of myself based on your mistaken beliefs. Then try to claim I am the one who judges people. Maybe time to take a break from social media.

[sure_about_that]

==California still has all the same issues.==

We weren't talking about California, the topic was Florida. That said, California's Governor is trying to solve those issues through policy, Florida's Governor is focused on being "anti-woke". Meanwhile, California has a Maternal Mortality Rate of 4/100k, Florida's is 22/100k [1]. One out of every 4,500 Florida women forced to carry a baby to term will die.

Interestingly, the 7 best states for K-12 education are all pretty "woke" [2]. Florida is ranked 33rd in math scores and 22nd in reading, maybe we should be looking to them for best practices rather than focusing one something completely unrelated to actually educating youth.

Edit to add: My state Illinois has much higher standard for students than Florida, which basically grades proficiency on a curve. Lowering the standards rather than the hard work of actually improving education.

"In Illinois, a student needs to earn a level of 4 or 5 to be considered proficient. In comparison, the rigor of Florida’s standards ranks 39th and 42nd, respectively, and a student only needs to earn a level 3 on the state assessment to be considered proficient." [3]

==treated as a racist in training by taking a million anti discrimination classes or be insulted by a class telling me to "sit in my shame".==

I've never had that feeling in a DEI class. I wonder why that is your reaction. It may be worth exploring why discussing equity makes you feel like you are losing something. Maybe you had a bad instructor?

==If the child is gay or transgender on their own, so be it. School should not be the realm to promote it or suggest it.==

This is the sex-ed argument all over again. If we don't mention underage sex, it doesn't exist. Talking about gay people doesn't turn someone gay. Banning books and regulating what teachers can teach/say doesn't seem like a solution to the problem you mentioned. It seems the same as mandating abstinence.

[1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/maternal-mo...

[2] https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education/p...

[3] https://capitolfax.com/wp-mobile.php?p=55412&more=1

[wonderwonder]

Lol, I didn't have the feeling that it wanted me to "sit in my shame", it legitimately said it on a slide.

Again all valid points. My focus though is very self centered as a parent, it's on my kids and no one else.

My kids are A students and attend gifted classes, their schooling is fine. Regarding infant mortality, again you are probably right with the numbers but they are not my focus. All of these things were my focus for a very long time, don't forget I have been a hard core Dem for 20+ years. My concern now is my kids and what I want them exposed to at school. I have been pretty focused on doing the greater good politically for a long time. In regards to the current upcoming state elections I am going to be selfish and focus only on what is best for my family for the next 4 years.

Note: I am also very aware that my change in focus and world view is significantly linked to my high income and the benefits it provides me right now. I just am fine with it, and am putting my goals and wants for my family over everything else. I worked 50-60 hours a week for years to get here. I'm not opposed to being selfish for a bit.

[sure_about_that]

==I didn't have the feeling that it wanted me to "sit in my shame", it legitimately said it on a slide.==

Did you feel shame? If I was told that, and didn't feel shame, not sure I would have dwelled on it so much.

You do you. We make a very high income as well, and my politics have gone in the exact opposite direction as yours over 20 years. Over those 20 years, higher-educated and higher-earning Americans have become far more likely to vote Dem. You are actually swimming against the tide. I watched the affluent area I grew up in (DuPage County) move from bedrock Regan Republican to Democrat over my lifetime.

When Republicans failed to create a replacement for ACA after campaigning on it for ~8 years and 4 elections (2010, 2012, 2014, 2016); I realized they weren't actually interested in governing. DiSantis is the embodiment of that "bluster-over-policy" approach.

== In regards to the current upcoming state elections I am going to be selfish and focus only on what is best for my family for the next 4 years.==

I hope it works out for your family and also the many other families in Florida.

[wonderwonder]

No one has the right to tell me to sit in my shame. No one has the right to make someone else feel lesser for the benefit of a specially selected other. If someone is offended by something I say or a way I act then I am willing to discuss their issue with it. At no point in time will I feel shame or sacrifice my pride. Pride is what makes someone who they are. Take away pride and you are left with a shell of a person. Look at people with no confidence, life for them is empty and grey.

[LawTalkingGuy]

> This is the sex-ed argument all over again. If we don't mention underage sex, it doesn't exist. Talking about gay people doesn't turn someone gay.

Democrats nicknamed it the "don't say gay" bill but that isn't its name, its goal, or its outcome. It's about the age appropriateness of the introduction to the topic.

The issue, to the parents who campaigned for the bill and the politicians who passed it, is gender. Unlike homosexuality (LGB), talking about gender does turn people transgender - or rather has the school hook the child up with hormones and body modification without the parent's knowledge.

Just fyi, about the news renaming and reframing things before you hear about them, Florida republicans protected women's sex-based rights by making male-bodied people play sports on men's teams and the news called it "denying transgirls their human rights to play sports".

> [To WonderWonder] Did you feel shame? If I was told that, and didn't feel shame, not sure I would have dwelled on it so much.

WonderWonder is thinking of their children, and how they'll be told they're racist - and to sit in their shame - just because of their race. That's a pretty regressive outcome so I understand them wanting to avoid it.

[zzzeek]

> Unlike homosexuality (LGB), talking about gender does turn people transgender

categorically false

> or rather has the school hook the child up with hormones and body modification without the parent's knowledge.

source? schoolteachers can prescribe medication and perform surgery? Are these teachers also MDs ? That would be unusual ? not to mention extremely illegal for teachers and doctors to treat children without the consent of their legal guardians? teachers can't even give kids a tylenol.

> WonderWonder is thinking of their children, and how they'll be told they're racist

the word "racist" in modern use refers to actions that are racist, such as voting for Ron DeSantis. It doesn't matter if in your heart you're racist or not, if you do racist things, whether you have any idea or not that those things are racist, that's what it means to "be a racist".

[LawTalkingGuy]

> categorically false

Sadly, true. Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria as described in Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier. It's a social contagion.

Over 95% of transgender children, left to themselves, desist. Many realize they're gay/lesbian, the others are just fine too.

> schoolteachers can prescribe medication and perform surgery? [...] extremely illegal for teachers and doctors to treat children without the consent of their legal guardians?

Look at Mermaids and Keffals. People will send you hormones and breast binders even if they know you are underage and it is expressly against your parents' wishes. Teachers and counsellors often hook children up - LibsOfTikTok has videos of people admitting to this. Legal advocacy groups are telling teachers unions that they need to help keep this a secret from parents lest the child be forced to kill themselves.

> the word "racist" in modern use refers to actions that are racist

"In modern use" means "as we redefined it to win arguments".

> if you do racist things, whether you have any idea or not that those things are racist [...] such as voting for Ron DeSantis.

Thanks for the warning.

[zzzeek]

> People will send you hormones and breast binders even if they know you are underage and it is expressly against your parents' wishes.

sending hormones to children without medical professionals involved is illegal. do you know of teachers doing this? call the police. problem solved.

> Teachers and counsellors often hook children up

you're being very sloppy with your wording. "hook children up" means "giving drugs to children". not happening, if it is happening, call the police.

> LibsOfTikTok has videos of people admitting to this

then those people would be arrested

> Legal advocacy groups are telling teachers unions that they need to help keep this a secret from parents lest the child be forced to kill themselves.

you are confusing "giving drugs to kids" with the practice of teachers keeping confidential when a student verbally expresses to a teacher that they might want to identify of a different gender. Certainly, the latter point is still something that can make people upset, but that's all it is - the child says words to a teacher about how they feel emotionally about something, and the teacher /school is then given leeway to determine that they might not inform the parents if it is feared that the parents will retaliate towards the children. Be mad about that if you want but this is not "transitioning" anyone or "hooking up" anyone with drugs.

> "In modern use" means "as we redefined it to win arguments".

if you are "not a racist", but then you thought it was funny to go to a halloween party wearing blackface, you just did a racist thing. It doesnt matter what you thought in your mind. This is not controversial. if you showed up to a party like that, you practiced racism. nobody cares or need be concerned what you actually think in your mind. If a Nazi throws you in an oven, are you concerned if they are actually anti-Semitic or not?

[LawTalkingGuy]

> sending hormones to children without medical professionals involved is illegal. do you know of teachers doing this? call the police. problem solved.

No, I know of the person sending the hormones. They had the police called on them but they cried to the media and ended up getting the site with the proof shut down amid a total kerfuffle. There are a lot of people like this though and reporting them does nothing.

> then those people would be arrested

Sadly, no. Often not even fired. Teachers are bringing strippers to school to dance for the kids and when parents protest they're being attacked by the school boards. The media is haranguing parents for trying to even be involved, let alone when they point at the problems.

They don't touch the drugs themselves, they simply get the kid onto the Mermaids chat or any of the others and find a groomer to help them.

> you are confusing "giving drugs to kids" with the practice of teachers keeping confidential when a student verbally expresses to a teacher that they might want to identify of a different gender

I wish. Not only do they present "gender affirming" surgery as an option for mood related problems but they don't even wait until a child says they want to identify, they often ask the kids if they want to and in some cases harass them because 'cis is boring'. And the school will definitely broker meetings with counsellors and doctors if they get a hit.

There's a case from my area where the school called the parents in after the child had many (around 10) counseling sessions and had seen a "gender surgeon" for a consultation. The parents were told by the shrink that their daughter was a son and they could recognize that or would have a suicide on their hands. The counselor delivered a suicide threat in the child's name, in front of the child. They already had the testosterone waiting (from the surgeon). When this went to court the school continued to file briefs in the case in concert with the law society and in the end the child was taken away and transitioned. Breasts cut off, poisoned with testosterone.

Had the parents known when the school, the teachers and the counsellor, convinced the child that they were trans they could have responded before she'd been fully groomed and sent off for "affirmative care".

> go to a halloween party wearing blackface

Do you recognize that womanface is just as stereotyping and harmful?

[wonderwonder]

Absolutely, I agree, every black person that votes for DeSantis is 100% a racist. They are doing racist things. Or are we on board the "only white people can be racist" bus? Come on friend you are now policing peoples minds. You have labeled ~50% of the countries population as racist, a pretty serious accusation. This includes a good number of minorities. People have different priorities in life, not everything they do revolves around race. Essentially the people that cry racism the most are generally the racists feeling like they have to white knight for the poor oppressed minorities. The worst part is that they just cant see it, most openly racist people can at least acknowledge it. Black people can do just fine on their own they are not helpless children looking for a hero. And they can vote for whoever they want.

[sure_about_that]

==Essentially the people that cry racism the most are generally the racists feeling like they have to white knight for the poor oppressed minorities. The worst part is that they just cant see it, most openly racist people can at least acknowledge it. Black people can do just fine on their own they are not helpless children looking for a hero.==

You are the only one who has made a claim about anyone being "helpless", but it's good to know that is immediately where your mind went. For someone who totally isn't racist, you seem to know exactly how racist people think.

[wonderwonder]

Exactly, well said. I did not feel shame, I felt pretty irritated that I was being spoken to in that way and even more irritated at the thought that by the time my kids are getting their first job it could be way worse. They are essentially asking you to sacrifice your pride on the alter of being progressive.

Girls being forced to play sports against men is irrational. The most troubling aspect though is as you said, schools being able to decide that a student is of another gender and act for all intents like they are without informing the parent or getting their consent. Any actions performed on a student by a member of the school staff should only be with the express written permission of the parent.

Its my personal belief that a large percentage of the rise in transgenderism is because of kids being exposed to the concept via the media, pornography and school. If you keep the concept away from kids until they are older I am pretty sure the prevalence would fall dramatically.

I am not anti trans, I wish everyone a happy and satisfying life, I just have no interest in exposing my kids to the concept. While very low in number, the situation with schools actually allowing drag shows on campus shows how far from common sense we have strayed. Society is catering to it. Parents should have a 100% control over their kids and any decisions made on their behalf.

This opinion may be a little controversial but I'm also not a fan of thought police either where people are punished for having ideas or opinions outside of the norm. If someone does their job and treats everyone with respect at work, what they believe in their off time is their business as long as they are not a violent threat or breaking the law. I have on at least 3 occasions had calm rational conversations with open anti-semites (of the Jews rule the world and are responsible for its ills variety, not the kill them all variety) and even gone drinking with them. They knew I was a jew but we could still converse and be respectful. I would be fine working with them as long as they kept their attitudes outside of the office and again did not resort to violence or break the law. We cannot punish people for the contents of their mind.

[sure_about_that]

==Democrats nicknamed it the "don't say gay" bill but that isn't its name, its goal, or its outcome.==

The actual bill language sure makes it seems like the goal, as it was written with ambiguous phrases like "age-appropriate" and "developmentally appropriate": "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards." [1]

==It's about the age appropriateness of the introduction to the topic.==

Is it? I'm pretty sure it is grandstanding:

"one of the key reasons critics cited in saying the law was unnecessary was that teachers do not cover such subjects in early grades anyway." [2]

Lawyers disagree with you that it is only about "age appropriateness of the introduction to the topic":

"Workshops about the law that her school district’s legal team held over the summer caused confusion. Some staff said they were told teachers in kindergarten through third grade could not display pride flags or photos of their same-sex spouses." [2]

Are you sure your news didn't "rename and reframe" it?

==Florida republicans protected women's sex-based rights by making male-bodied people play sports on men's teams and the news called it "denying transgirls their human rights to play sports".==

Protecting one group's rights by denying another group's rights, similar to women and fetuses.

==rather has the school hook the child up with hormones and body modification without the parent's knowledge.==

I would love to hear more about all these cases. Can you share?

==WonderWonder is thinking of their children, and how they'll be told they're racist - and to sit in their shame - just because of their race.==

No, they were mentioning their own experience in a DEI class.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2022/03/28/1089221657/dont-say-gay-flori...

[2] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/dont-say-gay-law-brin...

[LawTalkingGuy]

> Protecting one group's rights by denying another group's rights

How were the males involved denied their rights by the school having them play sports on the men's team? The females involved sure lose their rights when males are allowed into their sports and spaces.

> I would love to hear more about all these cases. Can you share?

Lookup "Keffals" and "Hoogland transgender".

> Some staff said they were told teachers in kindergarten through third grade could not display [...]

If you're using something as a lead-in to a forbidden topic for your class's age range, it would be forbidden. Generally teachers should be like counsellors and keep their private life private so it shouldn't be a problem.

> Are you sure your news didn't "rename and reframe" it?

Yes, because even if it was as "bad" as you say, teacher's don't have a right to tell the kids whatever they want. Teachers are already recommended to not tell kids what religion they are, and until recently, what their politics are. This is about the kids, the teachers have a job to do.

[sure_about_that]

== Lookup "Keffals" and "Hoogland transgender".==

2 Canadian cases that have nothing to do with American laws.

== If you're using something as a lead-in to a forbidden topic for your class's age range, it would be forbidden.==

I don't think displaying a picture of your family is "a lead-in to a forbidden topic". Feels like quite a stretch. I remember everyone of my teachers growing up had picture on their desk or on the wall. My son's teacher has them today.

== the teachers have a job to do. ==

We should let them do the job for which they studied and were hired. They are the experts in teaching, we should let them teach. How do you feel when people who know nothing about your industry tell you how to do your job?

[LawTalkingGuy]

> Canadian cases that have nothing to do with American laws

Do a search or watch LibsOfTikTok to see what's happening in the USA.

> I don't think displaying a picture of your family is "a lead-in to a forbidden topic".

It is if you're hoping to be asked about it. Watch the LoTT videos. Some of those teachers say they're just waiting for their kids to ask about anything queer-adjacent.

> We should let them do the job for which they studied and were hired.

Many parents are/were teachers and have equivalent education. They agree that schools bypassing parental safeguarding rules is unacceptable.

> How do you feel when people who know nothing about your industry tell you how to do your job?

Lol, you've met my manager I take it? But I actually like it though because I'm a consultant at heart and explaining and guiding is more important than pedantically providing what I was asked for. If the teachers were willing to explain their PoV maybe the parents would support their teaching but secrets can't be accepted.

> They are the experts in teaching, we should let them teach.

They're experts in phalloplasties and puberty blockers which is why we should give them secret and unfettered access to children?

The same people who want trans-identified male athletes in female sports and washrooms are saying exactly the same thing about child surgical transition, "All the science supports this". It's pretty hard to take them seriously when they say William Thomas has no advantage against female swimmers since he changed his name to Lia or that chemo drugs produce a perfectly reversible delay in puberty.