[jelliclesfarm]

We have a strong legal system that protects employees. We should start working on it and strengthening it so every employee has protections instead of these hived off unions.

Unions started for factory workers and farm workers too when they had no rights. It’s entirely unnecessary and disruptive now to rely on unions that simply use an artifact of the past to bully employers and reduce productivity.

In America, we have monetary as well as legal safety nets. Unions are used as political means to create vote banks in our current times. I think if politicians wants to mobilize voters to suit their own agenda, they should do it on their own time and on their own dime.

Also: Union pension funds are humongous and public sector and govt employees pension funds are the main reason why we have pension fund liabilities and the some state’s economy gets manipulated.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing-strategy/090...

The California teachers Union is the most powerful union and voting block followed by correction officers union. The amount of political power they wield is often hidden from most people esp those who frequent places like HN. Tech workers Union and Starbucks unions make no sense. A powerful union needs hundreds of thousands of members. And billions of dollars. If tech workers and Starbucks employees Unionise, the entire economy of the USA would crumble and collapse simply from the macro economic impact.

Not to mention their power over how our cities are run. Case in point, why can’t we build modular homes quickly in San Francisco so there is more housing and affordable ones at that. Unions oppose it. And people end up talking and fighting about NIMBYs and prop 13 by brainwashing kids in public schools(unionized teachers) and colleges(again unionized work force in state univs).

Some little squirt still in high school will spout off about NIMBYs and I want to know where they got it from…instead of availing an education, we have an uneducated public school trained political mob. Kids just out of school would speak about Prop 13 and I am like..dude, pay your bills and your taxes. I mean..get a job first before you want to get grandma to sell her home to build your ‘walkable city’.

https://norcalapa.org/2020/12/san-francisco-trade-unions-at-...

Most importantly: The amount of meddling and damage that this has caused our education sector is irreparable and irreversible. We have an entire generation of politically uneducated ignorant gaslit and easily manipulated youth because of the agenda driven public education they recd from our hard earned tax dollars. Worst investment ever.

These youngsters that are the products of a useless public education system wanting to form unions while working in airconditioned work spaces are simply reflecting their education. Rebels without a cause probably never saw the James Dean movie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebel_Without_a_Cause

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/558095/facts-about-rebel...

Unions are outdated. The law is universal for all in the USA..and it is a superior and effective system because it protects everyone from workers to employees to immigrants rights to undocumented workers. We should work on the law of the land and not on divisive pseudo political outfits like unions.

[hey2022]

Hard to respond to such a long comment containing so many different talking points.

I can’t tell if you are advocating for updating labor laws instead of relying on unions to influence individual employers. If that’s the case - that’s a strong argument.

Since forcing stronger labor protections at the Federal or even State level takes a very long time and is usually counter-acted by extremely powerful corporate lobbying and propaganda (e.g. Uber), unions offer a more immediate and flexible alternative.

Compared to most European countries, labor laws and benefits in the US are a joke. Unions fought for improving labor condition in Europe, and will hopefully fight for the same level of improvement in the US. Peeing into a bottle should not be OK at an Amazon warehouse, maternity leave should not be an optional benefit, “at-will” employment should not be the standard, etc etc

[jelliclesfarm]

Why are we always comparing America to Europe? What if we compare America to China?

America is America. We will have to do what’s best for us. Constant and random comparisons with other countries picked for simply beating down America isn’t helpful.

[hey2022]

Because humans strive to become better over time, not worse. Practicing gratitude is important, but if we fixate on "well, at least we are not Bangladesh", then we won't have much motivation to improve things.

[jelliclesfarm]

This is entirely irrelevant. In what way is America going to ‘become better’ by emulating European(a cluster of many countries) labour laws?

European unemployment rates are much higher..at least 50% more..than American unemployment rates. There has been no relative increase in wages in Europe whereas it has been steadily increasing in America leading to better quality of life index.

There is no comprehensive Europe vs USA comparison but this is a good read of how they dealt with the pandemic(most of the countries mentioned have less than 1/4 population of US)

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/pandemic-shows-contra...

There is no way to compare Europe to America but it serves better to compare America to China or India as USA is the third most populous country in the world after the other two.

Comparing America to 5 million peopled NZ and 60 million peopled France is an entirely useless exercise. Unless the purpose of the comparison is to simply pit western countries with a majority white population with other countries with a white majority…therefore ignoring comparable countries from the east. And that’s is frankly Racist.

China is more comparable to USA when it comes to economy than any other European country. But they are Asian, so it doesn’t count seems to be your stance.

[hey2022]

Why does comparing US to China make more sense than, say, US to Germany? China/US population size ratio is ~4.2, about the same as US/Germany (~4).

In the context of this discussion (unions) and in practical terms, US is culturally and historically much closer to Europe than it is to China.

Finally, I don't think I will ever get used to Americans obsessing over racism. Calm down.

[jelliclesfarm]

America is not relying on European work force for its productivity and GDP. It is relying on low wage tech outsourcing from non European countries.

https://georank.org/economy/germany/united-states (3.9T vs 20.5T)

https://georank.org/economy/china/united-states (13.6T vs 20.5T)

Also your original comment compared ‘Europe’ and not Germany or a specific country. The population of ‘Europe’ is roughly twice that of America.

Also: [..]The European Union's GDP was estimated to be around $17.9 trillion (nominal) in 2020, representing around one sixth of the global economy.[..]

Most of the tech sector relies on immigrant talent from places like India even though most stay on work visas without ever getting to enjoy the benefits they paid into the system.

If America were to follow European standards, then you’d think we’d be importing or outsourcing European labour. Oh wait! We don’t do that!

At least, we will stay warm this winter. And maybe save the world with our evil military when beckoned.

Racism exists. In every part of the world. Including HN. I would recommend that you not stay calm about it. Maybe you have the luxury of not caring if you are discriminated against, but many of us don’t have that privilege. Take care. I don’t enjoy these online ping pong matches unless you are consistent with your data.