[hey2022]

Hard to respond to such a long comment containing so many different talking points.

I can’t tell if you are advocating for updating labor laws instead of relying on unions to influence individual employers. If that’s the case - that’s a strong argument.

Since forcing stronger labor protections at the Federal or even State level takes a very long time and is usually counter-acted by extremely powerful corporate lobbying and propaganda (e.g. Uber), unions offer a more immediate and flexible alternative.

Compared to most European countries, labor laws and benefits in the US are a joke. Unions fought for improving labor condition in Europe, and will hopefully fight for the same level of improvement in the US. Peeing into a bottle should not be OK at an Amazon warehouse, maternity leave should not be an optional benefit, “at-will” employment should not be the standard, etc etc

[jelliclesfarm]

Why are we always comparing America to Europe? What if we compare America to China?

America is America. We will have to do what’s best for us. Constant and random comparisons with other countries picked for simply beating down America isn’t helpful.

[hey2022]

Because humans strive to become better over time, not worse. Practicing gratitude is important, but if we fixate on "well, at least we are not Bangladesh", then we won't have much motivation to improve things.

[jelliclesfarm]

This is entirely irrelevant. In what way is America going to ‘become better’ by emulating European(a cluster of many countries) labour laws?

European unemployment rates are much higher..at least 50% more..than American unemployment rates. There has been no relative increase in wages in Europe whereas it has been steadily increasing in America leading to better quality of life index.

There is no comprehensive Europe vs USA comparison but this is a good read of how they dealt with the pandemic(most of the countries mentioned have less than 1/4 population of US)

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/pandemic-shows-contra...

There is no way to compare Europe to America but it serves better to compare America to China or India as USA is the third most populous country in the world after the other two.

Comparing America to 5 million peopled NZ and 60 million peopled France is an entirely useless exercise. Unless the purpose of the comparison is to simply pit western countries with a majority white population with other countries with a white majority…therefore ignoring comparable countries from the east. And that’s is frankly Racist.

China is more comparable to USA when it comes to economy than any other European country. But they are Asian, so it doesn’t count seems to be your stance.

[hey2022]

Why does comparing US to China make more sense than, say, US to Germany? China/US population size ratio is ~4.2, about the same as US/Germany (~4).

In the context of this discussion (unions) and in practical terms, US is culturally and historically much closer to Europe than it is to China.

Finally, I don't think I will ever get used to Americans obsessing over racism. Calm down.

[jelliclesfarm]

America is not relying on European work force for its productivity and GDP. It is relying on low wage tech outsourcing from non European countries.

https://georank.org/economy/germany/united-states (3.9T vs 20.5T)

https://georank.org/economy/china/united-states (13.6T vs 20.5T)

Also your original comment compared ‘Europe’ and not Germany or a specific country. The population of ‘Europe’ is roughly twice that of America.

Also: [..]The European Union's GDP was estimated to be around $17.9 trillion (nominal) in 2020, representing around one sixth of the global economy.[..]

Most of the tech sector relies on immigrant talent from places like India even though most stay on work visas without ever getting to enjoy the benefits they paid into the system.

If America were to follow European standards, then you’d think we’d be importing or outsourcing European labour. Oh wait! We don’t do that!

At least, we will stay warm this winter. And maybe save the world with our evil military when beckoned.

Racism exists. In every part of the world. Including HN. I would recommend that you not stay calm about it. Maybe you have the luxury of not caring if you are discriminated against, but many of us don’t have that privilege. Take care. I don’t enjoy these online ping pong matches unless you are consistent with your data.

[hey2022]

I am struggling to follow your argument.

Yes, GDP of China is closer to GDP of US. However, I would argue that GDP per capita is more important in this discussion. GDP per capita of Germany is closer to US than China is. After all, we are discussing improving labor rights and higher GDP per capita is associated with a higher standard of living and, therefore, better working conditions and benefits.

> Also your original comment compared ‘Europe’ and not Germany or a specific country.

That was you who switched from Europe to individual countries ("Comparing America to 5 million peopled NZ and 60 million peopled France is an entirely useless exercise."), so my comparison to Germany is based on that.

> If America were to follow European standards, then you’d think we’d be importing or outsourcing European labor. Oh wait! We don’t do that!

Right. We need the unions because labor laws are outdated and we need to improve them. Similar to how European labor unions fought for the rights of workers in Europe. The fact that US outsources labor to lower standard countries is not as amazing as you might think it is.

> At least, we will stay warm this winter. And maybe save the world with our evil military when beckoned.

You are really jumping all over the place. Unions, racism, war - if you don't like "online ping pong matches" then please at least keep your comments more on-topic.

> Racism exists. In every part of the world. Including HN.

This is such a pointless virtue signaling. Let me try to play this game...

Comparing America to 1.4 billion peopled China and 1.38 billion peopled India is an entirely useless exercise. Unless the purpose of the comparison is to simply pit countries with a majority male government with other countries with a male government… therefore ignoring comparable countries from Europe that are led by women. And that’s is frankly Sexist.

Sexism exists. In every part of the world. I would recommend that you not stay calm about it. Maybe you have the luxury of not caring if you are discriminated against, but many of us don’t have that privilege.

Really contributing to the discussion, right?