[leifg]

Knowing German I read through the sources. This article is pretty misleading.

The [primary source](https://www.watson.de/leben/urlaub%20&%20freizeit/879935671-...) is a slightly clickbait article asking the questions: "Are AirTags allowed in checked luggage?".

They reached out to Lufthanse asking them. They responded: "Luggage trackers are electronic devices so they have to be turned off when the luggage is checked".

It is unclear wether they really understood how AirTags work and that they are not active trackers.

There are a bunch of other magazine echoing this response but I have yet to find an official statement by Lufthansa explicitly banning AirTags.

[layer8]

Translation of the cited statement by the Lufthansa spokesperson:

“Baggage trackers belong to the category of Portable Electronic Devices and are therefore subject to the Dangerous Goods regulations issued by the International Civil Aviation Organization for carriage in aircraft. Accordingly, the trackers must be deactivated during the flight due to their transmission function, similar to cell phones, laptops, tablets, etc., if they are in the checked baggage.”

This likely refers to the following regulations: https://www.icao.int/safety/DangerousGoods/

From the 2017 addendum no. 2:

“Portable electronic devices containing lithium metal or lithium ion cells or batteries […]

d) if devices are carried in checked baggage:

— measures must be taken to prevent unintentional activation and to protect the devices from damage; and

— the devices must be completely switched off (not in sleep or hibernation mode);”

Note that the AirTag batteries contain lithium.

So Lufthansa is merely citing the applicable ICAO regulations, which presumably apply to all civil airlines.

[samatman]

I think they're incorrect, but one would have to read all the regulations carefully to be sure.

I'm basing that judgement on this: https://www.icao.int/safety/DangerousGoods/Documents/Guidanc...

Part 2E makes a battery handling label exception for button cells, quote: "except that button cells installed in equipment (including circuit boards) need not be considered."

While this is packaging guidance, and not airline guidance, I expect it's the same rule, for the same reason.

[ajmurmann]

This section makes it even more confusing to me, since I thought that the whole cell phone transmission restriction theater had been removed a few years ago. Was that only within the US and I've been violating EU regulations for years?

[layer8]

I don’t think this is about transmission. Rather, it is probably to reduce the risk of thermal runaway of lithium batteries, which can cause fire and explosion.

The regulation also states that such devices “should be carried as carry-on baggage”, that is, in preference to checked baggage, presumably so that the devices are less prone to damage, and cases of malfunction and fire will be more quickly detected.

[RC_ITR]

Sure. But to that end, are button batteries known to be susceptible to thermal runway?

[layer8]

See for example here: https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/lithium-batteries-safe-to-fly...

[Hnrobert42]

That article, while interesting, does not address button batteries. Maybe I missed it. I found it interesting that you can ship any amount of lithium batteries as cargo.

[LorenPechtel]

All current *rechargeable* lithium chemistries are an issue, single-use is not. Air-Tags aren't going to start a fire.

[ugjka]

Air tags don't have lithium batteries

[cromka]

Did you bother to check? AirTags doesn't have any battery by itself, they use replaceable CR2032, which are most commonly lithium. Although alkaline alternatives exist.

[ugjka]

My bad :(

[core-utility]

Is the cell phone transmission theater even lifted in the US? I still get asked to turn on airplane mode regularly (though Wi-Fi is okay)

[GuB-42]

Actually, 2G does interfere with aircraft communication, I don't think it is the case for other bands.

You may already have heard the interference. Just before the phone rings, you may hear some a characteristic beeping sound on your headphones or speakers. And guess what, pilots hear it in their headsets too, aviation headsets are just regular wired headsets. I fly small planes and I hear it regularly. No big deal, it won't turn off the engine or anything like that but it is still a minor distraction, and it may affect communication.

I remember about 20 years ago, after the usual announcements, the pilot clearly said something along the lines of "someone has his cell phone turned on, please turn it off, I won't move before it is turned off".

So no, it is not just theater, maybe modern aircraft have a way of shielding pilot headsets from passenger phones, or maybe it is less of a problem with the phasing out of 2G, but it has a real effect I experienced first hand.

[forty]

I'm surprised that anyone who believe that any passenger could mess with airplane communications by not turning their phone off would accept to take that risk and board a plane at all :)

[dhsysusbsjsi]

If a phone can take down airline communications, there is something wrong with the aircraft. These should be properly shielded lines.

There are now millions of hours of airline ops with phones on. It doesn’t cause any problems.

Also hot tip: the pilots are using iPads the entire flight too. With Bluetooth and wifi often linked to other gadgets.

[_moof]

Just so there's no confusion on this, the cell phone rule is FCC, not FAA. It's not about interfering with the aircraft, it's about causing problems with cell networks.

[Firmwarrior]

Well, they used to come scream at you if you were reading a Kindle during takeoff, so that part has relaxed at least

So far as I know you're supposed to put your phone into airplane mode to turn the cellular radio off, but they don't seem to care if you use bluetooth any more

[squeaky-clean]

The reason for that one I've heard from pilot friends is just that they want you upright and alert during takeoff and landing. I've been told to stop reading a book during a landing once. But imagine most of the flight crew don't want to deal with the potential fights from telling someone to put away a non-cellular device.

[blowski]

I seem to remember from "Cockpit Confidential" that things could get thrown around in the air during a bumpy landing, causing a risk of head injury to passengers. This includes books.

[cassianoleal]

I'm usually playing games, reading or watching videos during takeoff and landing. Nobody has ever told me not to. Why would I need to be alert? Do they think I'm not going to notice if the plane suddenly starts falling off the sky?

[Semaphor]

> want you upright and alert during takeoff

I’m great at sleeping, so I sometimes fall asleep during taxi and before takeoff. That was never an issue.

[grapescheesee]

They are supposed to ask everyone stow devices over 2 lbs.

[newguynewphone]

i fly exclusively delta, and i always get asked to turn airplane mode on and any services that transmit audio are explicitly banned while on board (Discord, teams, etc.)

[vineyardmike]

> services that transmit audio are explicitly banned

Because taking a call is annoying AF to the 50-100 other people in the shared giant tube.

I’ve been seated next to people who insist im not on a call, this is FaceTime and I’ve always wanted to yell at them for their disrespect.

[ranger_danger]

> Because taking a call is annoying AF to the 50-100 other people in the shared giant tube.

Then why did airplanes used to have built-in phones in every seat?

[borski]

Why don’t you?

[knorker]

Supposedly not putting in airplane mode will also wreak havoc with cell towers when flying low enough to cause interference and hella-frequent base station handovers.

Though I've found the latest generation of planes to be pretty much faraday cages, with most planes I'd believe it.

[belter]

The main reason for what you call "theater" is possible interference with ILS. And saying mobile phones or other devices are not in the same frequencies, does not cover the scenarios of misbehaving/cheap or uncertified devices.

"Instrument landing: why do all electronic devices need to be shut off?" - https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/11555/instrumen...

"Why aren't cell phones allowed to be used in aircraft?" - https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2021/why-arent-...

MythBusters dismissed it a few years but forgot to consider misbehaving/cheap or not certified devices. And I would not trust two hipsters to be the certification committee for commercial airliners... -

https://web.archive.org/web/20140715091521/http://www.discov...

[smoldesu]

The more predominant issue is keeping anything with a lithium-ion battery in checked luggage. They'll crack down on anything from laptops to hearing aids.

[rx_tx]

CR2032 batteries that are in airtags are NOT lithium-ion, they're non-rechargeable and are usually Lithium/Manganese Dioxide [1] (lithium metal). I believe they're fine to have in checked luggage if contained inside some equipment (like the airtag). [2] Look for PI 970 If transported by themselves, they're cargo aircraft only.

Source: [1] https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/cr2032.pdf [2] https://www.iata.org/contentassets/05e6d8742b0047259bf3a700b...

[layer8]

The wording “containing lithium metal” from the ICAO regulation still applies.

[luma]

That same org also explicitly calls out button cells are not being covered. They really aren't the same thing as a rechargeable lithium ion cell.

[FabHK]

They're fine to have in checked luggage (under some restrictions). But the device containing them must be completely switched off, according to the rules. That is at issue here.

[Zak]

Both lithium-ion and lithium metal batteries that are installed in devices are allowed in checked baggage in the US and most other places. The devices must be powered off. What that means is a bit ambiguous as most modern laptops, tablets, and phones have some components powered any time a battery is installed.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage

[layer8]

The regulation specifically states that "the devices must be completely switched off (not in sleep or hibernation mode)", and mobile devices normally all have a way to completely shut them down, with no components remaining active. The only exception I'm aware of are wireless earbuds (e.g. AirPods). Presumably you're not allowed to have those in checked baggage.

[Hnrobert42]

I would wager most people don’t realize that to completely turn off their iPhone they must adjust their settings to not use Find My even when powered off.

[atoav]

So electrical engineers could just use a MCU let it power itself of during flight, use passive components (discharging capacitors) to trigger a wakeup after a set time and you are good to go?

[andrewia]

Interesting. Since AirTags use standard CR2032 batteries, that means you could swap in an alkaline-based battery and avoid that regulation.

[camkego]

AirTags also have a two way bluetooth radio, which is prohibited: "due to their transmission function"

[patal]

Where do you get that from? The citation says:

lithium metal

OR

lithium ion cells

OR

batteries

[mytailorisrich]

No, the wording is lithium metal/ion cells/batteries.

It's all cells and batteries that contain lithium.

Wording: "Portable electronic devices containing lithium metal or lithium ion cells or batteries"

[ranger_danger]

I read the latter part as "lithium ion... cells or batteries".

[fortran77]

It's read as

(Lithium metal or lithium ion) (cells or batteries)

[KennyBlanken]

So do cargo monitoring (temperature/tilt/vibration/tampering) devices, which are in a lot of commercial cargo - especially vaccine shipments, but any sort of sensitive equipment being air-freighted.

So do wireless earbuds, watches both smart and "dumb", hearing aides, sport sensors including chest heartrate monitors and bike sensors/computers, travel alarms, book lights, e-readers, keychain flashlights, film cameras, and probably a million other things Lufthansa has never cared about for several decades.

The vast majority of electronic devices are "soft" power now, and an e-reader with a 2000mah lithium ion battery is as "powered off" as an Airtag with a sub-3-gram battery. Airpods - no "completely" switched off mode, same for their case.

There's also never been a single case of an Airtag shorting or smoking or failing in any way that would endanger an airplane, and CR2032 batteries can't generate enough current, or contain enough energy, to pose a hazard.

For decades the airline industry had no problem shipping exothermic oxygen generators with little or no regulation (because it suited them well, as they needed to do so for logistics, as the generators are for emergency passenger oxygen) until it caused multiple commercial plane crashes. If you think Lufthansa is suddenly concerned about safety here, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

This is about them not wanting the public to see:

- that their luggage isn't on the plane with them, and generating a fuss at the gate / in the plane

- that their luggage is in a specific place/airport and come calling for it or say "I can see exactly where it is, stop lying to me, it's at airport _____, send it to me"

- their stolen luggage ending up at an employee's home, or the warehouse of a theft ring run by luggage handlers which the company is ignoring

- their "lost" luggage ending up at a warehouse where it is then sold by the pound to companies that sort through your luggage and ebay anything of value

They really hate that customers now have the power to see that they're being lied to and/or stolen from, and be held accountable.

[tsimionescu]

Except that Lufthansa simply replied by citing a ICAO regulation - no more, no less. They have not "banned AirTags", they simply stated an existing regulation that applies to any aircraft.

Whether they actually enforce that regulation in any way remains to be seen, but they couldn't have given any other answer (or else risk being investigated by civil aviation authorities for not properly observing existing flight safety rules).

If you want to convince anyone that they should allow lithium batteries with some particular characteristics to be used in devices that are not turned on, you don't have to convince Lufthansa or any other airline, you have to convince the ICAO and/or national civil aviation bodies, since it's their rule that Lufthansa was citing.

[jsjohnst]

This really should be a top level comment, as it’s spot on imho.

[iudqnolq]

It would be spot on if Lufthansa actually gave a different answer for those.

I bet you if you call Lufthansa and say "I want to put wireless earbuds in my checked baggage" they will also tell you they need to be switched off.

[Sakos]

Dear god, get a grip. Somebody asked Lufthansa specifically about AirTags and this is their response about AirTags based on current regulations. I'm sure if you asked about lithium-based whatever else, you'd get the same answer because the same regulations apply.

[ranger_danger]

Please don't spread FUD.

[Bud]

There's no FUD in this comment. It's right on target.

[cromka]

It's FUD because OP cannot possibly know that "This is about them not wanting the public to see". That's pure speculation, and it fits the FUD definition perfectly.

[ghaff]

And given that United, for one, gives me the exact same information (as far as I can tell) in their app about the location of my checked luggage as their computers have, it seems unlikely that one of their partner airlines would explicitly scheme to prevent people from knowing where their checked luggage is.

As others have said, this seems a case of AirTags possibly don't comply with long-established rules for checked luggage but, like a lot of the rules for electronics on commercial airplanes, the letter of these rules is broken in various ways probably tens of thousands of times every day.

[propogandist]

Lufthansa gave a non-answer, and there's nothing in their comment suggesting they've banned airtags in checked luggage. They will also have an impossible time enforcing it.

The site "covering this" is focused on creating travel content to push credit card affiliate links. They (like most) benefit from clickbait articles that will get picked up around the web, giving them backlinks to improve SEO ranking for a competitive niche.

[Aachen]

I'm not super familiar with these systems, but don't they send out beacons using something like Bluetooth Low Energy or some similar protocol? That wouldn't be just passive and turned off unless something external powers it (like NFC could be argued to be).

(Which is not to say that it's therefore a valid argument by this airline, but the title seems accurate if the trackers are sending out signals actively and that's what's prohibited.)

[postalrat]

What do you mean "active tracker"? As far as I know airtags have a battery and aren't passive devices.

[yftsui]

AirTags doesn’t report its location, the iPhone or other iOS devices report nearby AirTags. That’s the difference between an active tracker that has its own cellular connection.

[t0mas88]

For aviation regulations there is no different between an active or passive tracker, the rules are not about takers.

The rules are about there being a lithium battery in it (there is) and whether it has a radio transmitter (it does, airtags transmit Bluetooth signals).

Lithium batteries are not allowed in checked baggage. Transmitters are allowed only if turned off.

[dghlsakjg]

Lithium button batteries of the size you would find in a tracker are allowed in checked baggage.

You are correct about transmitters though

[croes]

It's not about the data but about the signal as such.

[josephcsible]

Don't the premises "AirTags are only allowed in checked bags if they're turned off" and "AirTags can't be turned off" lead to the conclusion "AirTags aren't allowed in checked bags"?

[usrusr]

Sure. Just like a bazillion other coin cell powered nrf52 devices. Or like a coin cell powered digital watch. Would an F91-W be allowed in checked luggage? Perhaps not, not unless there is a specific exception. And if you ask some policy communication employee, they won't make up exceptions, they'll apply the rules at hand.

[bdcravens]

The battery can be removed.

[tsimionescu]

But you're also not allowed to transport lithium based batteries in checked luggage unless they are inside a powered-off device, I believe.

[Hnrobert42]

I think you can as long as they are stored in such a way as to prevent an accidental short circuit.

[bdcravens]

Per FAA, this is correct. Obviously other jurisdictions may vary

https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/resources/media/Airline_...

[Andrew_nenakhov]

AirTags are pretty much active devices, they transmit data all the time. If some iPhone happens to receive that data, iPhone relays it to Apple servers and adds coordinates where it received data.

[Zigurd]

Best comment in this thread. This should really be about the article being a well executed recipe for clickbait.

[swat535]

They are banned: https://twitter.com/lufthansa/status/1578879849577385984

[daguava]

If Lufthansa doesn't understand the simple meaning of an electronic device it's all the more power for them to get destroyed with this messaging.