[_k7dr]

I have placed myself in therapy dozens of times up until now. Ultimately nothing has ever worked out up to now. There was always something that prevented further introspection, like the author describes. I am not sure that it is surmountable. Past therapists have told me that my relationship with them was not viable.

At some point I only went to therapy on someone else's insistence. At some other point I realized that I was only ever in therapy because I was terrified of those other people's eyes on me, insisting that I go or I can't reasonably integrate with their company based on becoming a person changed to their expectations. When I realized that, I lost interest entirely. I also reported my experiences with therapy to the other party, and predictably, they shunned me.

So there were two conclusions I could make: that maybe therapy isn't ever going to be as effective with me than with an average person, and that if someone's acceptance of me depends on my acceptance of therapy, then they are a lost cause.

At the same time, I can understand such a response. There are probably hundreds of comments on this site directed towards depressed engineers and others where the advice essentially amounts to "go to therapy." What would those people say if your response was "no, it doesn't work?" But the fact is, it doesn't work. At the same time, common sense surrounding therapy is too strong a force to be reckoned with on an average advice thread, and the culture is not going to overturn it. So your only option is to stay quiet, and be left alone.

This I think is one example of the "boundary" that the author describes, in trying to address that boundary with action.

[wruza]

In my own experience, therapy works (and I’m not an easy case either). It’s more like not all therapists work, and the depth of your issues may be too big to even comprehend in a couple of years. I can’t tell for my hardest issues, but relatively small ones like a bunch of situational anxieties I successfully fixed. (The great finding was that once I eliminated the first algorithm, I realized that they are not situational, but remarkably generic. Lots of thoughts like “hmm, this is the same pattern, let’s give zero fucks and get new experience in return”.)

It’s still a well full of mud nonetheless, but hey I’ve been filling it for 35 years. I score around 6/7 on the above definition, also failed a socialization test.

I hit the wall a few times too. Questions not responding, nothing in my head to answer them. This wall is hard, hard on a level of debugging a binary without any debug info. I decided to relax a little and just accept and explore “theories” of my therapist and my own (e.g. just make an extreme statement about me and accept and therapy it, as if it was true). Also, some ideas don’t work because you may be trapped between an objective situation and your core character. While unsolvable, it e.g. gave me ~1.5x raise and benefits as a result. Nice. Also, when in a complete dead end, I just went on a session anyway and “started a new thread”. Most of them merged eventually in surprising ways and gave more clarity on previous ones.

I wish you to find what works for you eventually, if you are willing to continue.

[_k7dr]

For me it's more the nature of the therapeutic relationship that gives me pause. I already don't find social experiences rewarding in any sense. My explorations with several therapists in trying to change or manage this failed, from what I think was the flawed hypothesis that I could be made to care about something that I didn't want to care about. And in fact, the nature of social experiences extends to the socialization necessary when interacting with a therapist. I don't know if most therapists are capable of addressing that issue.

This in fact seems to be a common issue with those who are diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder - that they are unable to develop a strong enough relationship with a therapist to see results, possibly because of a lack of social or related interest.

I can only hope that I don't permanently lose interest in working for money as well, for in that case I could be materially damaged for life.

And depression for me comes back when I'm reminded by others that they think I am depressed and need help. It is what well-meaning people and medical professionals cannot resist bringing up now that the subject of depression is less taboo than in the past. And yet, for me it's every little implication by the outside world that I could be in more trouble than I think I am that causes me the most anguish. As a result, I would prefer not to bring up depression if it's not so blatantly obvious that it can't not be discussed. They even could be right in reading my state of mind, but that same issue could also explain why therapy hasn't been successful for me.

Also, when I think about psychotherapy, I tend to remember this passage from Thinking Fast and Slow, a book that dozens of HN users have recommended, that resonated with me in precisely the wrong way:

"You will from time to time meet a patient who shares a disturbing tale of multiple mistakes in his previous treatment. He has been seen by several clinicians, and all failed him. The patient can lucidly describe how his therapists misunderstood him, but he has quickly perceived that you are different. You share the same feeling, are convinced that you understand him, and will able to help. [...] Do not even think of taking on this patient! Throw him out of the office! He is most likely a psychopath and you will not be able to help him."

Many years later I learned that the teacher had warned us against psychopathic charm, and the leading authority in the study of psychopathy confirmed that the teacher’s advice was sound.

I know that I was already biased when I reached this passage, but it single-handedly turned me off of the idea of pop-psych. This was exactly what I had done to the past few therapists I had seen, and I wasn't trying to be disagreeable or charming or anything. I had simply stated what was my own reality: that I felt that my previous therapists didn't understand me. The fact that Kahneman's idea of a well-trained psychotherapist is someone who ought to kick me out of their office instilled a lot of self-doubt about trying therapy again that I don't think I'll be able to explore with another party for a long time. Or, at the very least, that I should do my own research instead of taking the words of popular authors at face value.

[wruza]

the flawed hypothesis that I could be made to care about something that I didn't want to care about

Been there too, had to actively push back. I don't want to be more socialized, better accepted or something. I want to not experience negative emotions while in society. Therapists probably try to resolve this issue in the most default way. I managed to convince mine that it's not what I want, but we are still exploring.

I agree with a sibling commenter - what you feel is the starting point. You don't have to learn/need to care about that something. Your goal is to stop worrying involuntarily when it's nearby. (Sorry if this is obvious or doesn't apply, I'm sharing because some of this wasn't obvious to me for some time.) Also, I can't really say that I'm interested in relationship with a therapist. Barring professional respect, I don't care about him personally, what I do care about are our sessions, the structure of these issues and his professional stance. This is what allows me to open some private doors before him. Not that "buddies" feeling. I wouldn't otherwise trust a similar person that much.

[breuleux]

> This was exactly what I had done to the past few therapists I had seen, and I wasn't trying to be disagreeable or charming or anything. I had simply stated what was my own reality: that I felt that my previous therapists didn't understand me.

I have not read that book, but that doesn't seem to be what Kahneman is talking about? He is talking about people who say "all these therapists have failed me, but YOU are different," like they are trying to charm the therapist. I think the red flag here is people who are turning the session into praise for the therapist, whereas the normal reaction when the session is going well would be to keep the focus on yourself so you can finally get some progress.

Also note that you can only say "all previous therapists misunderstood me except you" to one therapist. Anyone after that would effectively be the second. Granted, it's demoralizing, but it IS progress :)

[phkahler]

I'll just say this. You've described situations where what people say (you seem depressed or whatever) cause you to feel something. When you feel things - particularly things you'd rather not feel - that is an entry point to progress. Go ahead and feel it. Reflect on why it's there. If other people make you uncomfortable, ask why you feel uncomfortable. Remember, it's not them.

[GoblinSlayer]

You don't need to overturn whole culture. See Ash experiments: conformism has a funny feature - it works only if there's no disagreement. One disagreement can be enough to instill doubt in assumptions.