[As_You_Wish]

Wow. This entire thread seems to be written by Chinese agents, looking to, on the surface, minimize the threat against the West by China.

Clearly TikTok can be a national security issue.

All these comments do not address this at all, and seem to do their best to ridicule a valid concern.

Obviously the issue is that the data from TikTok is required to go to the Chinese government as do the algorithms.

China has clearly benefitted from the West, by all the money and IP that we have given it, by the products we purchase. Now, the Chinese are biting the hand that feeds it, by becoming an ally of Russia. By actively looking to undermine the West. To deny this is to deny reality,unless you are saying all the reports on how the Chinese are doing this is "fake news."

.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-chin...

Robert Daly, the director of the Kissinger Institute on China and the United States, at the Wilson Center, in Washington, said “This is a pledge to stand shoulder to shoulder against America and the West, ideologically as well as militarily,”

.

The difference between TikTok and all Chinese apps is that the government essentially owns all companies, whereas in the West, this is not the case. Western governments can only access data from private companies if they have a search warrant.

Furthermore, I believe China will be seeking to invade Taiwan soon, and take over all their chip-making technology. Their population and economy is crashing, so now is the time to invade Taiwan.

To just dismiss these concerns about TikTok out of hand, without any discussion, is clearly wrong.

This entire thread seems like it was written by the CCP sleeper HN users.

.

Also, as noted by trident5000 below, China has access to all USA users of TikTok., but the USA or anyone else doesn't have access to Chinese users of TikTok. That's just one more issue to add on, and I'm sure there are others, too.

[dang]

> Wow. This entire thread seems to be written by Chinese agents, looking to, on the surface, minimize the threat against the West by China.

Please omit this sort of low-quality, evidenceless* insinuation from your posts to HN. The site guidelines specifically ask: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [e-mail] and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

If you or anyone want to know why we have this rule, many years of explanation can be found via https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....

* An opposing view does not count as evidence. This community is large and has a ton of people who come by their opposing views perfectly honestly, as I'm sure do you. Insinuating otherwise is hands-down the laziest internet trope there is, and by far the one that most corrupts discussion quality. You can make your substantive points without that, so please do.

---

Edit: actually, since you stooped to outright slurs elsewhere in the thread, I've banned the account. More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32904793.

[dimmke]

You are such a good mod/admin of this site. I don't know how one person does it. I really appreciate the work you put in.

[matsemann]

No, we're just non-US people not seeing the difference between US agencies forcing FB/Google etc to hand over our data, or China forcing TikTok.

Or even US people believing their data can be misused more by their own government, than a country they will never visit.

Also, my data on Fb/Google is much, much more personal than whatever TikTok has on me.

[tomComb]

But this conversation is about what the US should do about TikTok - it is specifically in the US context.

Also, there is a big difference between how US companies operate, and the circumstances in which they share data, and how a Chinese company operates.

A parallel is that Google pulled out of China because China demanded Google censor search results (and account security issues). You could easily retort that Google censors all their search results anyway, but there really is no comparison between what China demands and what some believe Google does anyway.

[krn]

> No, we're just non-US people not seeing the difference between US agencies forcing FB/Google etc to hand over our data, or China forcing TikTok.

As a non-US person, I think you didn't get the point: the US agencies can only ask for data, but the Chinese agencies can push whatever software changes they want.

In other words, if China attacks Taiwan, there is nothing from stopping them of changing TikTok algorithm to deprioritize all the user content critizing its actions.

It could even make it look like the entire TikTok is supporting China just by promoting "the right" user content.

[largepeepee]

That's not even remotely true that US agencies only ask for data.

Facebook has admitted to suppressing speech in Thailand and the US.

Twitter and reddit openly do it during election season to sway votes and opinions globally.

You must be outright blind to gross crimes you claim TikTok might do but other social media have ALREADY been caught doing.

[krn]

> Facebook has admitted to suppressing speech in Thailand and the US.

> Twitter and reddit openly do it during election season to sway votes and opinions globally.

Could you provide any reputable sources that claim that such things were done under the direct request from the US agencies? Or is this your personal interpretation?

[JSGdev]

The linked thread discusses how tik tok represents a natsec threat to America specifically. Whether y'all europeans think American bigtech is a natsec threat to non-American countries isn't really a concern right now.

[kfrzcode]

TikTok has access to your data from FB/Google. And more.

[trident5000]

China has access to US users while the US does not have access to Chinese users. Thats the issue at hand.

[As_You_Wish]

That's a good one that I didn't think of. Good job.

[bigtex88]

China is an authoritarian government currently engaging in genocide. The US government isn't authoritarian and is not currently engaging in genocide.

Do you really not see the difference?

[Xeoncross]

The US companies collecting and sharing all this personal data is terrible. However, the CCP's use of personal data is another level.

If a citizen or visitor to the US criticizes the government in any way; nothing happens to them. The CCP on the other hand is quick to arrest and silence any party within their jurisdiction which is critical of the government.

Literally millions of people have died because of the CCP's tight grip on the country and strong-handed end to any opposition. Ask the uighur muslims about this.

[hosh]

I think people in the West forget that Imperial China was a kind of superpower in the past, and the Chinese people have neither forgotten that they are capable of it back then and are capable of it now.

Being underestimated is to China’a advantage.

Another thing is that, Americans don’t see the effect of soft power and cultural imperialism because it has often been American culture and technology being exported elsewhere. Tik Tok is an example of a successful export by China, and it likely won’t be the last.

That bit about Western governments can only access the data through search warrant is not strictly true. The US have gotten around their own laws by such things as, purchasing consumer data on the open market without a warrant, or making agreements with other government intelligence agencies to obtain domestic surveillance data through a foreign ally’s foreign surveillance program.

[lossolo]

> I think people in the West forget that Imperial China was a kind of superpower in the past, and the Chinese people have neither forgotten that they are capable of it back then and are capable of it now.

Indeed, here is an article that explains some of that history

https://www.historyextra.com/period/modern/has-china-always-...

[As_You_Wish]

I understood this, but that's not the issue. The issue is that the USA does not have direct ability to order those companies to surrender their data. It's a different thing completely.

[the_gipsy]

> Western governments can only access data from private companies if they have a search warrant.

It's disingenuous to believe that western government agencies are fully transparent and always require a judge's warrant and in general don't engage in espionage activities - the USA are especially competent at this.

[soco]

Comparing the level of intrusion of a dysfunctional government (USA) with a full blown dictatorship (China) is even more disingenuous. If you think I'm wrong look at the wisdom of the masses: why nobody wants to emigrate to China?

[the_gipsy]

I'm not comparing, the comment I replied to is. I just pointed out that it is, in practice, wrong that western government agency do need judicial warrants to acquire corporate data.

[parineum]

And yet the difference remains. Imagine if the NSA didn't have to hide their likely illegal activities and they were instead their explicit, public and legal goal. The CCCP is proudly the worst case scenario for the NSA.

[ssnistfajen]

They aren't being disingenuous, because they clearly know it. They just don't care because disrupting basic civilized discussion via dehumanization is literally their task.

[commandlinefan]

What real harm can they do with this data though? You do have to opt in if you consume their service, so if you're really worried about what influence it has on you, you can opt out. I mean, I know that you and I and everybody else would rather be entertained by companies that aren't tracking us, like TV used to do, but that ship has sailed... they're going to track us, so we just have to figure out what the real potential harm is and protect against that.

[adampk]

The purpose of the algorithm is to provide content "for you". If you have not used tik tok I understand why you would not see the issue. Tik tok users quickly are lead into a "reality" based on what content is shown. You can sow division or push narratives quite easily if you control these algorithms in ways you cannot on facebook/twitter/etc.

[nomel]

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I would assume that it could help tremendously with PSYOPs.

If you could identifying some target group, like those easily influenced about a particular topic, then videos could be recommended to try to push them towards some perspective about that topic. I would even claim that the user generated content varies enough that the need for planted/sponsored videos would be rare.

I don't think it's remotely controversial to claim that they have the majority of the eyes of the US youth under their control [1]. I doubt there's ever been another time in history where a foreign, not-so-good-relation, government has had anything close to this level of direct, push, access to another countries population.

Lets flip it. If the most viewed media company in China were US based, partly owned by the US government (as ByteDance is by the CCP), I think we can all assume that a three letter agency would be using it to their advantage. They use our own companies to their advantage. China is demonstrably similar, in this way. But, China would never allow that scenario to happen.

1. https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/new-report-on-teen-soc...

[ssnistfajen]

Nothing says calm and rational discourse like preemptively silencing dissenting opinions by branding them via baseless accusations.

Perhaps people are just sick and tired of these weekly fear-baiting threads about Tik Tok, but who am I to comment on this mass hysteria incited for the sole purpose of hatred and conflict?

[version_five]

As has been pointed out, claiming "agents" is basically cop-out as opposed to making a substantive point

But I'm curious in general, would a site like HN ever attract state actors, or even corporate collusion (from a fortune 500 for example, founder asking friends for upvotes or friendly comments I've seen). It's an honest question, I can picture twitter and facebook and these massive dau number sites attracting psyops type stuff. Does it happen on the scale on HN and other "popular" sites that are still niche compared to the big ones? Does Ravelry have multinational threat actors posting? It would be interesting to understand that whole ecosystem

[djvdq]

They don't have to be CCP agents to ignore this whole TikTok concerns. People are usually ignorant, open for manipulation are prefer easy solutions and answers more than real ones (but complicated). So after your long list of arguments lots of people would answer "LOL, Twitter & FB bad" or "China is far away, I don't care what they have on me" or even "I'm no one, they won't manipulate me because I'm not important" (with this one they ignore that one person is in fact not important, but 80 millions of not important manipulated people are really important for propaganda war or even to elect proper people after slowly but patiently changing what should they think with such "safe" tiktok videos)

[concinds]

The CPC has TikTok data, and the US (through PRISM) has iCloud, Microsoft, GSuite, Facebook, and now likely Snapchat too. Separately to PRISM, the NSA intercepts data at the backbone level, which is for example how they could get every last byte of data Google has by tapping the network links between Google's datacenters (the "MUSCULAR" program). The "search warrants" are rubber stamps. The NSA's MARINA program collects metadata on everyone in order to do "patterns of life" analysis; this explicitly includes U.S. citizens because "metadata is not considered data" by section 702 of the FISA Amendment Act. The U.S. has also been documented to have infiltrated various peace groups/activist groups. Is the U.S. government a national security threat?

These are all privacy issues, but they're not national security issues. What's the exact concern here? TikTok being able to create voice and faceprints of US citizens? So can Snapchat or FB Messenger; and I would hope no CIA spy (the only people the CPC would actually care about) has a TikTok account.

What else? The CPC using TikTok to push pro-China or pro-Russia propaganda? Pro-Russia content was banned from TikTok, and TikTok isn't known for its popular pro-China videos. Promoting pro-Trump "propaganda" to "subvert" the U.S.? Trump is banned from TikTok. Where's the "subversion"?

[tomjen3]

It may be a US national security issue, in that the US secret agencies do not get access to everything the rest of the world creates.

This is an international community. We are not all Americans, and some of us react to the words "national security" as the town dwellers in the boy who cried wolf.

[whimsicalism]

> Wow. This entire thread seems to be written by Chinese agents, looking to, on the surface, minimize the threat against the West by China.

There are tons of HN guideline violations all over this thread @dang.

[operationGladio]

"Wow. This entire thread seems to be written by Chinese agents"

No, what about people who dont believe american propaganda?

"minimize the threat against the West by China. Clearly TikTok can be a national security issue."

The "west" is not a country. Who is being menaced here? The "west" (what countries are the west exactly? Bolivia is in the Western Emisphere, and they are more aligned with China than with the american Empire.) By "West" do you actually mean the NATO military alliance?

"Western governments can only access data from private companies if they have a search warrant."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Snowden is laughing his ass off!

"By actively looking to undermine the West."

Again, what do you mean by "the West"? The Western Emisphere? Developed countries? The Imperial Core? The NATO military-imperialistic-warmonger alliance?

I will tell you the regions of the world that don't benefit from the West, and the exploitation it produces: the whole of Latin America, Africa, Asia and Russia. Those are vast regions of land where billions have been historically EXPLOITED, SUBJUGATED and ENSLAVED by "The West". Fuck the west! It should completely be undermined and destroyed, to be replaced by a socialistic, humanistic and civilized society.

As long as "The West" and the wars, bloodbaths and constant bombings, coups, civil wars, guerrilla fighting and exploitation they promote exists, that cannot be achieved.

[NickC25]

Russia. Those are vast regions of land where billions have been historically EXPLOITED, SUBJUGATED and ENSLAVED by "The West".

The Russians have done quite a good job of exploiting their own people, no need for the West's assistance there. Example: Perestroika. You'd think a resource-rich country with some of the wealthiest individuals on the planet (and arguably THE wealthiest person on the planet by a great distance if rumors of Putin's actual net worth are true) wouldn't have trouble providing the basics to its people....but over 20% of the country doesn't have access to indoor plumbing. That's totally the fault of the big evil "West", now isn't it?

As for LatAm and Africa, no argument there.

[operationGladio]

"Robert Daly, the director of the Kissinger Institute "

Quoting the director of the Kissinger Institute! You cant make this shit up. Is just too funny.

[dang]

We've banned this account for using HN primarily for ideological battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of which ideology you're battling for.

Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html