[groby_b]

Neither deaths nor disability can be wished away by "just behaving as if it's normal".

As for "continuing lockdowns" - most of the western world hasn't had a single actual lockdown. So let's not pretend that's the issue, or a desired approach to the problem.

What is needed is

- data transparency, instead of reduced data collection.

- targeted measures, instead of blanket measures. Utilizing the above data, and focusing on leading indicators, not trailing ones.

- a medical system that actually makes the tools we have available, as opposed to undermining them and pricing them out of range.

- a focus on ventilation.

- a normalization of mask wearing in public indoor settings.

None of those are close to "lockdowns". That's a strawman nobody is asking for.

[conductr]

Sorry I thought this was an economic conversation, I’m not really debating how best to manage the disease at this stage, but if X deaths a year becomes part of the run rate economics should normalize.

> normalization of mask wearing in public indoor settings.

However, I am curious how this is not normalized now? It’s personal choice where I live and nobody blinks twice if you want to wear it. And my state is full of antimaskers. The issue becomes when you expect other people to wear it and they don’t want to.

[groby_b]

I also expect other people to wear pants in public, and if they don't want to, they can stay at home.

There is such a thing as collective responsibility and a social compact.

[conductr]

Oh, I see and think we’re just mincing words then. I think this is much closer to mandatory, law, requiring, etc than “normalization” which to me just means people don’t look at you weird for doing it. It says nothing about an expectation that they should be doing it too.

For example I could care less about someone wearing a mask if they want. I am not staying home for not wearing a mask. If I’m reading you right, you’d want me to stay home. So, we’re pretty far from any type of social compact and IMO have no hope for getting there given so many more people feel much more extreme about it than myself.

Social compact is an agreement and nobody is agreeing on this. Somehow everyone mostly agrees with pants.

Not to make it a personal attack, but I really find it strange how the “extreme measures” cohort of people on Covid and risks are still at it with this type of stuff. The news cycle on Covid is over. The turmoil is still happening but for most people the disease is not a daily concern anymore. They’ve resumed their lives. Are you still hoping things like mandatory masks become a thing? Do you really believe that’s even tenable? On a global scale? I never viewed that as particularly possible given how much cooperation would be required.

[spookthesunset]

You are right. Forcing “non essential” small businesses to close, stopping all events, closing churches, parks, playgrounds, schools, making it illegal to walk on “the dry part of the sand”, disallowing dying people to have visitors, forcing hospitals to stop taking elective surgery, arresting people sitting on benches,etc… these all just ordinary things… right? Definitely not a “lockdown”, right?

What is a lockdown if that isn’t? And how come those “real lockdown” places still have Covid? Or did they not “lockdown” hard enough either? I’m very confused here.

[groby_b]

A lockdown actually keeps you in your home.

And as I explained to you above, nobody except you is in any form talking about lockdowns. Put the strawman down already, it's starting to get worn on the edges.

[foobarian]

You may define lockdown as that if you wish, but what happened in practice starting in 2019 was extremely disruptive, especially before the vaccines came. Bottom line, it will be hard to draw conclusions from comparing metrics between 2019 or 2020 and any other "normal" year.

[somewhereoutth]

and they closed Wendy's too!