[PaulHoule]

Japan is a strange place. Polls show very low trust in the government, but the LDP has been in power since WWII almost continuously. A low faction of Japanese people claim to "believe in God" but Japanese participate in religious rituals at a high rate.

Abe was controversial because he wanted to amend Japan's pacifist contribution which is a huge can of worms. Because Japan is so culturally homogeneous I think they'd have a very easy time picking an outgroup to blame for problems.

[kadoban]

> A low faction of Japanese people claim to "believe in God" but Japanese participate in religious rituals at a high rate.

Wouldn't both a Buddhist and a believer in Shintoism tend to answer no to "belief in God"?

Also my impression is that the Japanese are generally just into rituals, they don't seem to need much excuse.

[someperson]

The word is superstitious. Other parts of Asia (like China) often claim no religious belief but are _very_ superstitious too.

[jaldhar]

It's "superstitious" from a Christian (particularly Protestant) point of view but this is what religion has historically been for most people. Even in rural England in the 1970s I saw the farmers had all kinds of observances related to saints, seasons etc. that didn't involve the church. I like to joke that the low belief in Christianity in England is because most Englishmen are actually druids!

[eloisius]

I think some Chinese (I don't want to extend it to "Eastern" because I don't know) ways of thinking are "superstitious" from any rational standpoint. Even in non-religious contexts, it's common to believe in things like being careful not to accidentally invite a ghost to stay at your house during ghost month. Or take something like blood types, a Western medical discovery. Many people In Taiwan and Japan believe blood types can say something about your temperament or use it for match making.

[kurthr]

See fan death in Korea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

Belief in fan death is still common even among successful educated people in their 30s-60s. Don't argue, it won't get you anywhere that a flat earther won't take you.

[easywood]

It's a euphemism for suicide.

[numpad0]

I think a huge source of confusion around East Asian cultures and rituals/religions is that this religion-culture has no formal names, definitions, structures and boundaries. There is no church or a verse responsible for the upside down 福 on a wall of a downtown Chinese restaurant, but there is it, and the only word applicable is superstitions. On the other hand there are Christ-mas cakes with a smiling figurine of a Saint standing on it.

[naniwaduni]

The thing about polling people about superstition is that people generally believe their own beliefs, so you're only going to conclude that other people are superstitious when they believe things different from you. So at best you have a noisy metric of ~religious tolerance.

[bergenty]

It’s the same in India, except the superstitions are more codified and all wrapped up within Hinduism. I don’t know if a lot of Hindus believe there is a god but it’s a heady mix of hero and ancestor worship and modes of good living brought to life as a religion.

[boxed]

The level of confusion and arrogance to call other religions than your own "superstition" is mind boggling. Especially since one of those religions is Buddhism which quite literally doesn't even believe in gods!

[someperson]

I'm the one you're replying to. I don't have a religion, but was raised somewhat culturally Buddhist.

I know Buddhism varies by sect but it's definitely still highly superstition: going to temples and praying, making offerings, beliefs in reincarnation etc

[boxed]

Going to temples? That's neutral clearly.

Praying? Yes. 100% superstition. Which is why it's not a thing Buddha talked about at all.

Making offerings? Same as above.

Belief in reincarnation? Well.. maybe. Buddhist rebirth can be just "have kids" or "influence others with your ideas", and then it can be "I got reborn as a monkey". The first is just science and common sense, and the latter is superstition. It's a wide range... Literally buddhists shouldn't believe in "reincarnation", but believe in "rebirth", as they shouldn't believe in a soul.

But we all know what Buddha says and what Buddhism teaches, and what people actually believe who call themselves buddhists are vastly different. Just as with Christians. There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians who don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. The head of the Swedish Church once said about the virgin birth "It's a nice story..." :P

Buddhism unfortunately has a bad history of talking down to the lay people and allowing them to believe all kinds of clearly incorrect stuff like immortal souls, or gods, or spirits. Hell, Pure Land buddhism is based on crazy stuff like that!

[vorpalhex]

It's not just superstition. Rituals play an important part for the human mind even in the absence of supernatural belief.

[sangnoir]

Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at school, or singing national anthems at non-national events come to mind as rituals not affiliated with the supernatural[1]

I hazard a majority of Americans (religious or not) voluntarily partake in those rituals.

1. I suppose rituals require venerated objects/subjects, and this is often religious, but does not have to be

[vorpalhex]

This is addendum, not correction.

Rituals have a few distinct elements:

+ Repetition both in the ritual and of the ritual itself.

+ Assigned time or place. Eg praying before dinner, or Christmas mass.

+ Fetish. Some kind of object or words, a "solidification of intent". This can be a garment or some specific movement too.

So yes, an anthem is absolutely a ritual, as is a specific cheer for a sports team, under this framework.

Rituals serve several purposes including fostering group identity (the family praying before dinner together), marking something as special (the anthem before a sports game) and demarcation (Christmas mass). Obviously a ritual can fulfill some or a blend of these objectives.

Rituals, I believe, matter for the subconcious and non-rational parts of the human psyche. I think intentional, religious or non-religious, rituals are a useful tool.

[Retric]

Sort of, the pledge includes a “One nation under God” bit but few take it in a religious context.

[vorpalhex]

That also came much later and if we take it in the same sense many of the founding fathers used the word "God", it would not be compatible with mainstream Christian theology.

[kadoban]

I have noticed, anecdotally, that the non-religious tend to be more superstitious, but no that's not really what I mean.

Japan just has a lot of rituals that people do daily and ~seasonally, and they tend to be well attended. The few people I've talked to about it didn't seem to have some superstitious or religious reason to do them, it's just a thing to do.

[xenadu02]

> Japan just has a lot of rituals that people do daily and ~seasonally

We have the same thing in western societies, it just isn't often as homogeneous. Taking the USA for example we don't call them rituals, they're just "how we do things" and the like.

Honestly I find it similar to the formal system of addressing people in Japanese and other languages with lots of words or modifiers for expressing your relationship to another person. We do the same thing in English, just less formally and with more variation among groups and regions. For example even if I am familiar enough to address my boss by first name I wouldn't address them a nickname: shortening names or nicknames tend to flow down or across the hierarchy in English, rarely up. The exceptions themselves are usually expressions of an extremely close relationship. Obviously this doesn't apply to people who are so far removed from the speaker that it isn't a relationship at all... that's another unwritten informal rule: if we grunts have a nickname for the CEO it would be extremely rude to use it in a meeting where the CEO is present, even if not addressing them directly.

[rgrieselhuber]

Superstition and Gnosticism go hand in hand in many ways, chiefly in the belief that matter or identifiable bits of matter are or can be corrupted on an essential level. In Japanese, the word “汚れ” has this nuance and you see it reflected also in any societies built on caste structures.

[babypuncher]

Religion is basically just organized superstition

[adastra22]

This is a cultural difference I think. Asking if you believe in God in the west is generally inclusive of such superstition.

[frellus]

> Wouldn't both a Buddhist and a believer in Shintoism tend to answer no to "belief in God"?

Shintoism == believe in many "gods" or spirits, but not one singular "God".

+1 on the "superstition" points here.

Source: my wife is Japanese. Also, I've seen "Spirited Away" more times than I care to say.

[astrange]

I’m not sure Shinto involves “beliefs” (though I never asked), it’s more like a set of cultural rituals like Christmas.

[PaulHoule]

To the point, Christianity has very little market penetration in Japan. People there don't feel the need.

[mrcheesebreeze]

buddhists do believe in GOD, just not the same way christians do.

Anyone who claims its athiest is mistaken and hasn't done enough research into it.

Can't speak on real shintoism, I don't know anything about it, but the meiji era state-shintoism held the emperor as their deity.

[boxed]

The basic tenets of "faith" of buddhism are literally

1. nothing is permanent (not even gods) 2. there is no soul (literally "atma" which can also mean god) 3. because humans don't accept 1 and 2, we are unsatisfied

The three marks are the bedrock of buddhism.

Now, buddhisTS, meaning people who call themselves buddhists often do believe in gods or god. Just like here in Sweden most people who call themselves Christians don't believe in the Trinity, the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, or any other of things many christians would think are mandatory for the faith.

You need to keep your terms separate. Buddhism is agnostic, it says that if there are gods then they also are subject to the natural laws. Buddhists can believe anything.

[coliveira]

Belief in gods and participation in rituals are different things. Japanese people are very traditional, they like to maintain the rituals of their predecessors. However, this doesn't imply that they believe in traditional gods. This may be strange for people that grew up on Christianity, but it is natural once you stop believing in supernatural beings.

[vorpalhex]

Plenty of religions were happy to add Jesus to their pantheon too.

[Bakary]

Does a ritual, if performed with some expectation of it having an effect on your life beyond the act of its own doing, not also imply a belief in supernatural entities?

[naniwaduni]

Nah, it implies a belief in natural forces.

[Bakary]

I'm not seeing a meaningful difference since the boundary between a passive or active supernatural force is not always clear in any regional belief system.

Christians will pray to Saints, which appear to be beings, but the rituals having to do with their invocation often seem to be treating them like forces.

The difference is orientalism and the compulsion to label Asian beliefs as more mysterious and wise than usual.

[naniwaduni]

It's not a difference. Take a look at proposed mechanisms of fan death, and consider, does that seem like a belief in the supernatural? Or a belief in a natural process that, incidentally, shouldn't actually be true?

People generally believe their own beliefs, and this includes believing that the way they think the world works is natural, not supernatural.

[Bakary]

My bad. A supernatural force actually caused me to misread your previous comment.

[blowski]

> A low faction of Japanese people claim to "believe in God" but Japanese participate in religious rituals at a high rate.

Most people in the UK celebrate Christmas, including atheists.

[the_af]

Christmas as "celebrated" by atheists is not a religious ritual. We gather (sometimes), eat, drink, and give presents to kids. Just like in birthdays (also not religious).

Any party or celebration is in some sense a ritual, just not necessarily a religious ritual.

[yunohn]

Indeed, most religious-origin festivals are celebrated by atheists as well.

As an atheist, I enjoy the culture and tradition associated with such events. Asian festivals have lots of lights and colors and rituals have dancing, singing, and art forms alongside. All of these come with tasty and nutritious food.

In some ways, I feel we’ve lost this beautiful richness in our modern non-religious lifestyles.

[nemo44x]

> In some ways, I feel we’ve lost this beautiful richness in our modern non-religious lifestyles.

Well, the celebrations are spiritually meaningless when actual, sincere theological views of the world are discarded for essentially material things. That the supernatural meaning of life has been replaced by "progress" in Western societies (we are continuously advancing towards better and better things) reflects this - we can build a paradise on Earth rather than have our spirits ascend to heaven when we are gone from Earth.

So yeah, the celebrations are basically just another get together with a dead tree nearby and the exchange of material things we've been lured into buying "on-sale", etc. If anything, it's even worse because of all the obligations and because of the lack of shared belief of a super natural thing, there's nothing that really brings us closer to each other.

[xboxnolifes]

I feel sorry to those who need to believe in ghosts to socialize with other people.

[nemo44x]

I don't think that's what I was saying. It was a comment on how when a religious celebration is still celebrated but the religious part has been hollowed out, you can't really find true meaning it anymore. Today it's just a commercial event where we stand around a dead tree and exchange presents for some reason. We are acting out the celebration of Christmas but we aren't actually celebrating it. It's a completely inauthentic event and at best a pastiche of the actual thing.

I think it's why I like Thanksgiving and the 4th of July more - it's essentially the same thing without the artificial Christmas obligations around it.

[xboxnolifes]

Why does the removal of religion sudden transform an event into a commercial event. And how does removing the religion make it commercial, but not having it in the first place does not (Thanksgiving/Independence), I do not get that seemingly popular opinion. I am not religious, though I was raised in a somewhat religious family, and Christmas has always been a good family holiday.

Don't need to have a belief in a benevolent God or his son to enjoy it or to celebrate Christmas. Plus, I'm sure that even if everyone was a devout Christian, businesses would still be marketing for Christmas sales.

[themaninthedark]

The religious rituals they participate in are things like going to the shrine at New Years to pray, paying money to the local shrine for blessings for birth, new house, etc.

Not something like putting up a Christmas tree and giving presents, maybe more like going to Christmas Eve and Easter sermons.

[coliveira]

Modern Christmas is essentially a non-religious celebration, unless if you go to church. It is mostly about family gathering and gift giving, so even atheists have no problem with that.

[notart666]

Christmas itself has its roots in "pagan" tradition not Christian. More aptly Old Norse. During the conversion of Scandinavia is when this change occured. Though it appears in every cultural group similarly as the winter solstice which is not religious.

[baryphonic]

Christmas celebrations far predate the conversion of Scandinavia. The early Christians in the Roman Empire were celebrating Christmas on December 25 since the second century or so. It was officially marked on the church calendar in the fourth century after Christianity became the state religion of Rome.

There isn't much evidence that the solstice involves major celebrations predating Christmas. Whatever small celebrations did happen may have been appropriated by Christians, which makes sense given the persecution they faced.

I'm all likelihood, the date December 25 (winter solstice) was chosen as being nine months after the celebration of the Annunciation on March 25 (spring equinox) where the Virgin Mary was told she would give birth to Christ.

Throughout the history of Christianity, Christians have incorporated local traditions into our rituals and festivals, but placed into their proper framing and order (i.e. the one God is the source of all creation and is goodness). When Christianity came to Northern Europe, the church incorporated Yule festivities, placed into the proper order with Christ at the center and not the old Norse pantheon.

The arguments about Christians actually celebrating pagan holidays are from certain (usually) Calvinist reformers who had a revisionist interpretation of various Christian traditions, and felt they had debased Christ's church. The Puritans in England, for example, banned Christmas after they took power in the English Civil War, which suppressed the holiday (at first legally, then culturally) until Charles Dickens essentially revived it in the 19th century. Today, atheists have simply appropriated the Calvinist arguments for themselves.

[blowski]

Pagan gods are still gods.

[wl]

The pagan origin of Christmas is a myth.

Something that specifically deals with alleged Northern European origins: http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/12/concerning-yule.ht...

[butterknife]

Would you not classify Saturnalia as pagan?

I understand it's not related to the currently hip Nordic paganism.

[wl]

Christmas as rebranded Saturnalia is also a myth:

https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-...

[butterknife]

Counter opinion piece:

https://www.academuseducation.co.uk/post/how-saturnalia-beca...

[rthomas6]

OP's point exactly. Christmas is a set of rituals.

[Hamuko]

Giving my mom a pair of headphones doesn't feel that religious to me.

[nindalf]

Paying my respects to my ancestors doesn’t feel religious to me - those folks, maybe.

[lern_too_spel]

GP's point is that you don't have to be superstitious to perform religious rituals. Many Japanese people are superstitious though, just not in the pray to a deity form that we are used to in the West.

[baby]

Don’t you set up a tree and listen to Christmas music

[Teever]

Christmas Trees are something coopted by Christianity and are pagan in origin.

Also there's very little about baby Jesus in 'Here comes Santa Claus' or 'Frosty the Snowman'

[Hamuko]

I mean, I hear Christmas music if I go outside, but I don't actively do it. And I can't remember the last time we've had a Christmas tree.

To me, Christmas is mostly about giving gifts, eating (especially chocolates) and watching TV.

[baby]

Oh noes :( you should get a christmas tree next time!

[soperj]

Christmas tree has it's roots in Pagan traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

[vorpalhex]

That is still religious.

[bialpio]

Doing something that has religious roots doesn't automatically make it religious. The question is: what are you getting out of it? We're setting up a (now fake) tree during holidays, but treat it as tradition and a nice decoration for winter. Another example: Halloween.

[thanhhaimai]

> A low faction of Japanese people claim to "believe in God" but Japanese participate in religious rituals at a high rate

This is similar to what we have in Vietnam.

A very large portion of the country, last estimated about 80%, consider themselves atheists. They don't believe God exists, and they are superstitious only in a joking way.

However, most of us also go to the temple for "religious activities". It's not because people truly believe in God, but because many traditional activities like Tet holidays (Lunar New Year), funerals, or anniversaries have usually associated with them. Also, people don't mind going to the temples even when they don't believe in God because the temples are much more relax (chill/zen). When I was young, I visit the temple myself just to chill and enjoy the scenery despite having no association with Buddhism.

[082349872349872]

> ...but the LDP has been in power since WWII almost continuously.

My impression is that gerrymandering initially associated with the Reverse Course[0] has much to do with those electoral results.

(But maybe not? A cursory search turns up an article[1] complaining that voters in a rural district had —only— twice the voting power of urban voters, which certainly sounds inferior to the extent of US practise)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Course

[1] https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2022/04/29/fixing-japans-gerry...

[staringback]

Rural districts having more "voting power" is not gerrymandering.

[HereIGoAgain]

This!

It's not a good mentality to have in this regard anyway.. Not unless you like growing your on food etc. lol

[bergenty]

There is something to say that people in a rural district have 10x the voting power but they are heavily subsidized by money made in urban areas.

[bell-cot]

>..."believe in God"...

In context (modern Japanese, capital-G "God"), I suspect that phrase would generally be interpreted to mean "believe in the monotheistic God of Christianity and other Western/Middle Eastern Abrahamic religions".

[boxed]

> very low trust in the government, but the LDP has been in power since WWII almost continuously

US Congress has an almost 80% (!!!) disapproval rating. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207579/public-approval-r... yet people are basically lifers in there. The Japanese system was largely modeled after the US, so seems logical...

[fomine3]

One of the reason is election system is bad. People in 1990s wanted to have two big party like US so they introduced single-seat constituency system but it's failed. One big party (LDP) and other smaller parties is current situation. One big party don't want to change current system for obvious reason.

[beebmam]

>Because Japan is so culturally homogeneous I think they'd have a very easy time picking an outgroup to blame for problems.

The US is the opposite, and its diversity doesn't stop them from doing it. Often, fully justified too, like in the case of the Soviet Union or Communist China. So I'm not very persuaded by this reasoning.

[wahnfrieden]

less strange, more that you are projecting when you say a country with behaviors that appear like unfamiliar paradoxes to yourself is itself a strange place, instead of it being yourself that is the stranger

[bamboozled]

No real opposition.

Just factions within the LDP.

[SenHeng]

As is often mentioned in motorsport: "To finish first, first you must finish".

The Japanese can be pragmatic to a fault. Being in the LDP more or less guarantees that you'll 'finish'. You may then focus your efforts on implementing the changes you're able to.

[supercheetah]

Is it that unusual? LDP is a conservative party that holds a majority with the voting public, and the opposition to conservatives everywhere is often much more fractured.

[krapp]

Seeing it from the outside, the LDP seems like Japan's Republican party, Komeito is the Evangelical Christian bloc, and Abe is your basic Conservative running on American exceptionalism and traditional cultural values.

The biggest obvious difference is the failure of the LDP to successfully repeal Article 9, but as I understand it, that doesn't have nearly as much popular support in Japan as war posturing does in the US.

[PaulHoule]

Britain lurched to the right after Margaret Thatcher but that didn't keep Labor from being in power for a few years (by co-opting the Tory program the same way Clinton co-opted Reagan) Germany, Israel, France, and numerous countries with parliamentary systems have power alternate between parties.

As for "opposition to conservatives everywhere is often much more fractured" that makes me think of an observation I've had which is that conservatives in the US are united by the idea that there is a way that things are "spozed" to be whereas what passes for the left in the US are a groups of people who perceive themselves to either be outgroups or be supportive of outgroups. The problem is that racial/ethnic groups such as blacks or latinos don't automatically support, say, transsexual maximalism. Environmentalism is still perceived as a "white thing" even though blacks are worse off when it comes to exposure to toxics. "Environmental racism" as an issue just hasn't sold.