Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by notart666 1378 days ago
Christmas itself has its roots in "pagan" tradition not Christian. More aptly Old Norse. During the conversion of Scandinavia is when this change occured. Though it appears in every cultural group similarly as the winter solstice which is not religious.
4 comments

Christmas celebrations far predate the conversion of Scandinavia. The early Christians in the Roman Empire were celebrating Christmas on December 25 since the second century or so. It was officially marked on the church calendar in the fourth century after Christianity became the state religion of Rome.

There isn't much evidence that the solstice involves major celebrations predating Christmas. Whatever small celebrations did happen may have been appropriated by Christians, which makes sense given the persecution they faced.

I'm all likelihood, the date December 25 (winter solstice) was chosen as being nine months after the celebration of the Annunciation on March 25 (spring equinox) where the Virgin Mary was told she would give birth to Christ.

Throughout the history of Christianity, Christians have incorporated local traditions into our rituals and festivals, but placed into their proper framing and order (i.e. the one God is the source of all creation and is goodness). When Christianity came to Northern Europe, the church incorporated Yule festivities, placed into the proper order with Christ at the center and not the old Norse pantheon.

The arguments about Christians actually celebrating pagan holidays are from certain (usually) Calvinist reformers who had a revisionist interpretation of various Christian traditions, and felt they had debased Christ's church. The Puritans in England, for example, banned Christmas after they took power in the English Civil War, which suppressed the holiday (at first legally, then culturally) until Charles Dickens essentially revived it in the 19th century. Today, atheists have simply appropriated the Calvinist arguments for themselves.

Pagan gods are still gods.
The pagan origin of Christmas is a myth.

Something that specifically deals with alleged Northern European origins: http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/12/concerning-yule.ht...

Would you not classify Saturnalia as pagan?

I understand it's not related to the currently hip Nordic paganism.

Christmas as rebranded Saturnalia is also a myth:

https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-...

That piece just uncritically reiterates the precise things the McDaniel piece I linked rebuts.

Specifically:

* The similarities in how western Christians celebrate Christmas and Saturnalia was celebrated aren't that numerous. In addition, the Christmas traditions that do have Saturnalia parallels seem to have arisen independently relatively recently, long after Saturnalia ceased to be celebrated.

* The date of Saturnalia, while close to Christmas, never coincided with it.

* December 25th as Christmas seems to have an origin independent of Saturnalia.

* The celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25th seems to postdate Christmas.

Additionally, the piece you linked does not deal with Alexander Hislop's work, which seems to be the origin of the alleged "pagan" origins of Christmas, Easter, etc.

OP's point exactly. Christmas is a set of rituals.