[tchaffee]

Some things deserve to be standardized. Electrical plugs being a great example. Removing choice is a feature. WiFi standards are another example. It's tough to understand exactly where to draw the line, but making computer cables all standard seems like a worthy goal. I can see a future when any device from displays to external drives to your phone can all use the same cable. That would be a nice feature where removing choice would be the better outcome.

Out of curiosity, what's horrible about the USB-C standard?

[scarface74]

Thought experiment, you pick up a random USB-C cord, now answer a few questions.

How much power can it deliver?

Does it do data and if so, at what speed?

Does it support video over USB and if so, at what resolution?

[kmeisthax]

1. The same or more power than Lightning

2. The same or faster than Lightning

3. Either none or higher quality than Lightning

I don't need to see the specific cord - Lightning only carries USB 2.0 and compressed video streams through a weird proprietary protocol. The base spec for USB-C cables is USB 2 and low-speed charging - i.e. equivalent to Lightning for everything but video out.

The main complaint about USB-C that people have is that there's no consistent labeling for the cheap-o base-spec cables versus the ones that actually have high-speed data lanes in them. This doesn't matter for the USB-C vs. Lightning debate, since charging and data will be the same or better and video requires a special cable or adapter in either case.

[spr93]

As others have pointed out, you're wrong about USB-C's minimum standards.

But more important, markets work best when consumers have good information about what they're buying.

Lightning always works as expected. Give me a Lightning cable and a Lightning port and I know what they'll do. Comparison shopping for a Lightning cable is easy.

But making an educated decision about which USB-C cable to buy requires understanding an increasingly complex matrix. You cannot just look at a USB-C cable or port and know what it is; you've got to parse each device or cable's spec sheet (if you can find one). https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/09/breaking-down-how-us...

The possibility of lock-in to a proprietary system is one piece of information, but consumers aren't getting screwed by lock in to Lightning connectors. It's easy to find a cheap Lightning cable that performs as expected; it's easy to comparison shop for them on price.

Consumers are, however, wasting a lot of money on USB C cables that don't do what they expect because the USB-C "standards" make it extremely difficult for ordinary consumers to know what they're buying.

[scarface74]

When I first started traveling for work with my MacBook Pro in 2021 and my portable USB C monitor, I would often have the wrong USB C cable and I didn’t know the vagaries of USB C.

I was at one of my company’s sites (I work remotely) and even the IT department didn’t have a “standard” USB C cable that could do 100W power and video over USB.

I ended up ordering one from Amazon - and having it shipped to my company’s office. I work at Amazon (AWS).

[WhyNotHugo]

Much as I like USB-C this is far from accurate.

My JBL speaker will only charge with a USBA -> USBC cable, but not with USBC->USBC.

I've a couple of cables that will charge headphones or other devices, but won't show data devices (like an external SSD, webcam, etc).

I've some cables that won't charge my laptop, however, other cables on the same charger do charge that same laptop.

Maybe some of these devices and cables are non-compliant, but they're what we see in the real world, regardless of what the spec says. USB-C is a mess. I still need distinct USBC cables, and need to remember which ones can charge which devices.

[scarface74]

1. Some USB cables only support power up to 5W

2. Not all USB C cables support data some or power only.

3. But USB C is suppose to be a “standard”. I can’t just assume any USB C cable is going to work with either my portable USB monitor or an iPad Pro that has a USB port

[philistine]

Industry bodies vary in quality; USB-IF is notoriously bad at UX. They focus on providing opportunities to participate in their newest standard. That's why you end up with monstrosities like renaming USB 3.0 to USB 3.1 Gen 1 and adding USB4 2.0 instead of simply calling it USB5, like it should.

Cables and docks, once again to give opportunities to participate to as many players as possible, only have to implement few elements of the standard to be branded.

Apple and Intel basically used the Thunderbolt standard to get rid of this mess. Thunderbolt 3 and 4 are forcing implementation of all the optional elements of USB to be branded. So if you want to have a sane experience with USB-C, stick to TB ports, docks and cables.

[tyrfing]

The superior experience with an Apple branded Lightning cable and charger: 5 watts, USB 2.0 speed, and no. Now that's progress!

[umanwizard]

20 watts, actually.

But anyway, the point isn’t whether lightning is better than USB-C. It’s about whether USB-C is good enough that we want to accept being locked to it for all time. If Apple wants to invent a better connector, they can’t, assuming this European regulation goes through.

[tchaffee]

> for all time.

That's a strawman. Standards evolve and new standards come along. 2G -> 3G -> 4G -> 5G. Well look at that.

> If Apple wants to invent a better connector, they can’t

Not true. If Apple is willing to share, they can invent all they want and propose a new standard.

[scarface74]

So they have to wait on a consensus. Wait for all vendors to agree. Wait for a government body to approve the new standard and then they can implement the new “standard” and still have it be as convoluted and half ass like USB C?

[tchaffee]

> So they have to wait on a consensus. Wait for all vendors to agree.

Yes, just like 5G. Interoperability is sometimes worth the tradeoffs so a nuanced view is needed instead of a reductive "standards bad, competition good".

[smoldesu]

They didn't have a problem doing that with Thunderbolt, I don't see why it would become a problem now all of the sudden.

[tpm]

You are right, but the current topic is standardising on USB-C for power delivery. So in that case only the first question applies. And funnily enough that question is the same for every power cable and plug. Even simple wall plugs and extension cords can burn out if a device draws too much power.

[scarface74]

How is the “current topic” only about power delivery. What happens when I plug my hypothetical iPhone with USB-C using a “standard” USB-C cable into my computer to transfer my 4K video?

What happens today if I pick up any random “standard” USB-C cable and try to charge an iPad Pro 12 inch or any other iPad that has a USB-C port, try to connect it to a video source that a USB source or connect it any USB-C device?

[celsoazevedo]

> What happens when I plug my hypothetical iPhone with USB-C using a “standard” USB-C cable into my computer to transfer my 4K video?

Your phone will charge and you'll be able to transfer your 4K video. Isn't lightning still limited to USB 2 speeds? If so, then it won't be any slow.

USB-C isn't a problem for Macs and iPads that use it, so not sure why it would be a problem on the iPhone.

(I didn't understand your second question.)

[scarface74]

Not all USB-C cords support data and those that do support data support data at different speeds. Some USB-C cords support data but don’t support video over USB-C. I travel a lot and soon will be doing the “digital nomad” thing.

I travel with this portable monitor:

https://a.co/d/aFeMMK1

You can plug it into a computer and get video and power with one USB C cable. But you have to have the “right” USB C cable. Video over USB-C is “standardized”. But not all cables support the standard.

Ironically, you can have the same issue today. Some cheap third party Lightning cables don’t support data and they don’t work if I plug up my monitor to my Mac for a third monitor using Duet (I can’t use the Mac built in capability because of an incompatibility with corporate mandated malware).

The iPad Pro should also work with my monitor. But still, you have to have the right “standard” USB C cable. You would have the same problem With a hypothetical future USB C iPhone.

I’m assuming you didn’t know about how some USB C cables don’t support all of the standards. If you didn’t know - someone who posts to HN and I assume knows more about technology than the average person - what chance does the average consumer have or the people making laws to force USB C to be the standard?

That is not meant to be an insult. I thought all USB C cables were the same until two years ago when I got my first modern MacBook for work.

I’m not saying Lightning is better than having a USB C port on the iPhone that supports the maximum power possible on the iPhone, with higher speed data rates and video over USB C. Apple agrees and that’s why almost all iPads now have USB C ports.

But that doesn’t mean that you will just be able to pick up a random USB C cable and it just works.

[gruez]

>Isn't lightning still limited to USB 2 speeds?

It supports USB3

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-us...

[tpm]

What happens today if I pick up any random USB-C and try to charge my non-Apple phone is that it charges, in some cases fast, in others slow. I don't have to carry around a special cable. I would expect the same from Apple, once they implement it. As for the data stuff, I'm sure they will manage somehow.

[scarface74]

Try your definition of “slow” on a iPhone 12 Pro Max using a cord that only delivers power over 5W. Better yet, try charging an iPad 12” Pro (that does have a USB C port) with a USB C cable that can only do 5W. Now try to use that same “standard USB C” cable to charge a 16 inch MacBook Pro.

Of course that standard cable is not guaranteed to support data at all.

So much for a “standard”.

[tpm]

iPhone 12 Pro Max has smaller battery than my 5y old Nokia, so I would not worry about that.

[tchaffee]

> How is the “current topic” only about power delivery.

Because that's what the law covers. All phone *chargers* must be USB-C compatible. And they must all interoperate. You must be able to buy a phone without the charger, so you can re-use your old one.

https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/sectors/electrica...

[scarface74]

How does that help reduce ewaste if you still don’t force standardization on the type of USB C cable being sold - ie a cable that supports 100W PD, video over USB C, and data? What are the chances that the $100 Android phone is going to come with a cable that supports the “standard”? What are the chances that your random convenience store is going to be selling cords that support “the standard”?

And your quoting the law showing that the government also didn’t know enough to consider all of those questions proves how incompetent the government is at writing laws concerning technology.

[tchaffee]

I answered your question, and now you've moved the goalposts... but I'll answer some more.

> How does that help reduce ewaste if you still don’t force standardization on the type of USB C cable being sold - ie a cable that supports 100W PD, video over USB C, and data?

The vast majority of people don't need that cable. Most people plug their cable into the wall socket (oh dear another government standard!) and recharge their device.

> And your quoting the law showing that the government also didn’t know enough to consider all of those questions proves how incompetent the government is at writing laws concerning technology.

I think this is a competent start. Industry was asked by the EU to self-regulate on this, and industry failed. I'm glad the government stepped in and in a few years I'll be able to grab any random USB-C cable to charge a wide variety of devices. Progress marches on.

In general, the EU has been very successful at writing laws around technology. Look at the mobile phone networks. I can travel anywhere in Europe and it just works. And my roaming charges are also kept lower thanks to laws. Lots of great technology laws out there if you could neutrally assess things instead of always reaching for "government bad".