[hosh]

The host of that video is Andrew Millison, who is deeply involved in permaculture design, and has a lecture series with the University of Oregon. Permaculture design is a fairly involved design process, so if you think this video is about "just plop down a pond!", you missed a lot of the main ideas.

For context:

  - Millison's lecture on different pond designs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AadLCOqalFk
  - Related is the design for slope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McopD04XP3s
  - Keep in mind, you actually start with site analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XNiacRhzuM (starting from the global and coming down to the local, and then moving on to sector, zone, and slope analysis, all _before_ figuring out the placement of water harvesting structures) 

Instead of thinking about these ponds as "ponds", these are really one form of water harvesting structures in permaculture design. And there are many kinds of water harvesting structures, each with its own tradeoffs, and how the work holistically together with other considerations such as microclimates (or even creating microclimates), sun, rain, wind patterns, and how they work with the inhabitants (both human and otherwise).

These ponds are not created for just irrigation. It's more sophisticated than that. The ones in the video are created as percolation ponds, and intended to recharge ground water. The idea is to slow water down and circulate it within the site before letting it flow on. The water held in percolation ponds are intended to be leaky. By redirecting flow laterally, the water is distributed across a larger area. It isn't just about water, but also about regenerating the soil in such a way that it is able to absorb and retain more water and nutrients, while cooling and regulating the local area, forming a microclimate. Counter-intuitively, more water becomes bio-available downstream rather than less.

Beavers used to do this across North America, and many of the permaculture patterns for managing water has analogs to what the beavers naturally do.

It's the modern irrigation practices which maximizes water usage without really considering how soil health plays a huge role in retaining water makes it less efficient in water usage. So we end up with water wars and the inability to grow crops during drought conditions. We fight over water rights when it is our land and water management practices that causes much of the problems in the first place.

Millison has a video series about what people in India are doing to regenerate wastelands that receive very little water fall. The general problem are the same -- monsoon season water running through the landscape too fast, eroding soil, which means less crops, and setting off a pattern of rural migrations. When villages are able to slow down the water flow, they were able to grow more crops. Many of the water harvesting structures built at the higher elevation slow water enough down where the downstream areas became more abundant.

[zz0rr]

I'm not commenting on "permaculture bad" or anything like that. I've studied it and it's very interesting and I do think it's a good use of our water. That said, in the western us, you're going to have to start with trying to get water rights. It may be impossible to do this depending on your water district's situation and current management, so the rights themselves are more interesting to me than swales or whatever.

[hosh]

I can dig microswales and basins, following the terrain that is already there and no one will really notice, especially if I level it with mulch. It won't look like it's a water harvesting structure. There's a lot more than just swales.

Something even as simple as a waffle pattern on flat ground for a garden or a crop is not something that would trigger fights about water rights.

In Arizona, water gets washed away into these storm pipes. Curb cuts are one pattern to fill a basin from water that would already be draining away on surface streets. It's done so that when the basin is full, the backpressure lets the water continue going down the street. That didn't trigger things about water rights in Tuscon.

Even swales that are created as small length trenches on uplands slow down water. I don't think people downstream are going to notice, other than perhaps, they are somehow getting more water for their use with less variability.

Water rights may be more interesting to you; I used to work for a legaltech startup, and while I didn't encounter water rights, I know that stuff like that can get complicated fast. However, for me, these permaculture design patterns are practical, in use, and solve the underlying problems that water rights badly try to solve. And maybe that is also because I'm sympathetic to those practicing guerilla gardening.

[lbotos]

Sure, but the dude in the video was talking about over a million gallons. Are you operating on that scale? If you are, kudos for working in legaltech but also playing fast and loose in your leisure time.

[hosh]

Fair enough. Looking at this: https://www.oregon.gov/owrd/programs/WaterRights/Pages/defau...

It would be interesting to see if they got a permit for it.

The other thing is that, if the water design helps increase available water downstream, then the downstream water right holders who are able to fully fill their tanks have no reason to demand shutdown upstream (assuming the downstream has senior rights)

[hosh]

Here’s a 2014 application for 80 acre feet of water reservoir in Oregon, led by Millison. It was granted in 2015, and involved several agencies and consultants. https://www.permacultureintl.com/water-rights-application

[bombcar]

A million gallons is a lot, but it’s only a cube 51 feet on a side.

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/sci...

[lbotos]

50 feet is a pretty long. As a cube that would be close to 5 stories tall.

I think the point you are trying to make is water volumes get big fast and the point I was making to GP was if you are gonna be messing around with large volumes of water please get some permits so you don't flood your neighbors.

[bombcar]

Yeah, the most surprising thing was it is only 25,000 bathtubs - once could conceive of easily adding storage area to land that was 25,000 depressions, assuming the land was a few sq miles.

Or one largish pond.

[sarkastineer]

I think you bring up a good point, if you are planning to create any kind of system greater than 4 acre feet of water, it is imperative to get the permits and do the planning as the consequences of flooding and pond / reservoir failure are very real.

Also, one thing land owners don't usually check into is the wildlife risk created by changes to wetland or riparian areas. South-Western Oregon has several species of concern like the Northwestern Pond Turtle - https://www.oregonconservationstrategy.org/strategy-species/...

Currently, Josephine and Jackson county are very amenable to creation of fire suppression reservoirs because of wild fire risk. There are a bunch of requirements for those types fo reservoir, but they can greatly accelerate the permitting process.

All that said, if you are creating ponds < 4 acre feet of water, a lot of people just build it and get a permit post construction (if they get reported or care) as the process does take so long, and in Oregon the permitting after the fact process is/was very lenient.

As another commenter said, if you are cutting swales, creating small reservoirs to feed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%BCgelkultur style structures (i.e. less than .1 acre feet of water), most permitting bodies rarely ever know or care.

In most cases, you are far more likely to get code / enforcement attention if you run afoul of your neighbors and they report you.