[Qem]

1) Hitler did a favor to US, starting an idiotic xenophobic/racist campaign in Europe, causing bright scientists to flee in droves to seed US research institutions;

2) Once the British empire and later US became economic powerhouses, English became the de facto research language, what gave English-speaking researchers home turf advantage in access the research literature;

3) The budgetary constraints to universities are softened when they are backed by a government able to print the global trade currency.

[systemvoltage]

> starting an idiotic xenophobic/racist campaign in Europe

Today, Asians are fighting for equality in US educational system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v...

This is most likely going to lead to striking down Affirmative Action. I suggest leaving emotions out of this and read the actual case materials. There is a lot of intellectual discourse, nuance and vigorious debate in those materials as well as amicus briefs. I love reading high profile lawsuits and this is one of them.

[csa]

> Today, Asians are fighting for equality in US educational system

You seem to have read the details of the case, yet you say that Asian Americans are fighting for equality by citing a case that has determined at the lower level and appellate court that no systemic discrimination occurred.

Please don’t extend this meme… Asian Americans are doing just fine in admissions across the board at US institutions.

1. The appellate judge has confirmed the lower court ruling that no quota-based discrimination was found.

2. Even if true (it’s not), it is only at a some (10-20?) elite universities. It is definitely not systemic.

3. Harvard undergrad population is ~26% Asian American. US population is ~6%. This is not a perfect comparison for discrimination, but it hardly reeks of xenophobia (not really relevant for Asian Americans in the US) or racism.

4. The only reason this argument has any potential merit is because Asian Americans have higher average grades and SAT scores than the rest of the admitted population. This would indicate discrimination if those were the only admissions factors, but they are not (at Harvard, I believe SAT and grades would be part of one factor out of five that includes things like sports, and this is similar at several other elite schools).

5. Note that the “students for fair admissions” are hoping that the Supreme Court overturns the appellate court decision and thereby possibly ending affirmative action. Basically, their case is encouraging less overall diversity at elite schools for theoretical benefits to Asian Americans (note that imho it will backfire in a number of ways… look at what has happened to Stuyvesant and Berkeley for examples).

Grades and SAT scores are easy to understand for everyone. Furthermore, for kids whose parents came from East Asia, where entrance to elite universities is (for most entrants) exclusively exam-based, this is a very unintuitive system. The logic that some folks hold (both Asian Americans and non-Asian Americans) is that perfect grades and perfect SATs should get you into the best school, but that’s just not how the admissions systems at these elite schools work.

All of these schools talk about how they want a well-rounded student body, and the admissions materials make it clear that they are looking for a wider range of students beyond bookish brainiacs. I will add that if an applicant wants to get into an elite school based on academics, then grades and SATs are not enough to catch the attention of the admission committee — great grades and SATs alone only make an applicant look similar to thousands of other applicants.

Anyway, I wish the best of luck to anyone applying to an elite school. But if they do, I hope that they focus their application on something other than grades and SATs — they will have a tough time getting in otherwise.

[systemvoltage]

> You seem to have read the details of the case, yet you say that Asian Americans are fighting for equality by citing a case that has determined at the lower level and appellate court that no systemic discrimination occurred.

"Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President and Fellows of Harvard College (Docket 20–1199) and Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. University of North Carolina (Docket 21-707) are a pair of lawsuits concerning racial discrimination in affirmative action programs in college admissions processes. "

It is though. It is alleging racial discrimination. It is literally the first line on Wikipedia.

> Please don’t extend this meme… Asian Americans are doing just fine in admissions across the board at US institutions.

That seems completely orthogonal.

I don't have a horse in this race. I am a bystander telling people to go look up the case materials and study them for yourself as a matter of intellectual curiousity. Not sure what is the cause for your defensiveness, I am not even arguing those nor am I interested in it. I'd say, the fact that urging people to seek facts is causing an uproar for defense and a lash out, should an indicator of importance of this case. Please read my first comment and see if there is anything but factual matter. There is no "meme" here. As per the facts of the case, plaintiffs are fighting for equality and alleging discrimination. That's not up for debate, whether you support for side or the other. We don't need to argue the case here on HN, that's being done for us by the brilliant lawyers on both sides for us :-).

[csa]

> It is though. It is alleging racial discrimination. It is literally the first line on Wikipedia.

It is an allegation that has been determined twice by courts not to hold water.

People can allege anything, and they often do for political or pr reasons (politics being the real reason for this case, imho).

> Not sure what is the cause for your defensiveness

I have lived in Asian for 9 years of my profession life, and I am active in parts of the local Asian American community. My concern/defensiveness is that this claim of discrimination is widely repeated despite being refuted by the courts. I appreciate that you want people to read the case details themselves, but most people don’t do that, and they defer to people (like me and you) who do read the details for thought leadership.

In California, where I currently live, there are very real, irrefutable acts of discrimination happening against Asian Americans. These really need to be dealt with. Admissions at elite schools is not one of them, and repeating a claim on this topic that has not been supported by the courts or the case details (at least imho) is just adding fuel to the outrage fire as well as taking attention away from real discrimination that is happening.

That’s just my 2 cents. I don’t feel the need to persuade anyone in particular, but I really wish HN folks would discuss this topic in a more informed way. I add my contributions so that folks can see a more detailed/nuanced side to this issue that is rarely presented in the press. Do with it what you will.

[systemvoltage]

> It is an allegation that has been determined twice by courts not to hold water.

That describes vast majority of SCOTUS cases. Not surprising. That's kind of how cases reach SCOTUS (except in rare occasions when SCOTUS grants writs of certiorari to a district court case).