[trhoad]

> So we share your jobs on our site. A candidate applies. You interview them and decide to hire them. You notify us you hired them. We send you an invoice. You pay us a fee.

I'm absolutely stunned that this works.

> For one thing, our contract imposes a late fee for failing to notify us of a successful hire. And the fee increases every month that they don't tell us. This is a pretty good deterrent.

Is it? It sounds like a pretty good deterrent to being honest...!

Anyway, I can't argue with the figures, if true.

[franciscop]

I was one of the "Quick aside since I get asked this all the time."[1]

Being from Spain I'm 100% a lot of the companies here would try to cheat this, but he made some good points both in the tweet answers and article; it's better to pay early and low, than being caught very late and having to pay a huge amount (don't know how much better though).

If a company retires a job without paying, I'd def spend few minutes tracking possible candidates (those who clicked "Apply" and put their data, Linkedin/Twitter/etc, follow up emails to the candidates, as he said Amazon gift card, etc).

Some might still fall through the cracks, but seems like if they get enough % of them that's probably good enough.

[1] https://twitter.com/_etdev/status/1552529476164419584

[themanmaran]

Having also run a hiring company, I was worried about companies ghosting us after making a hire. Turns out the vast majority of customers don't balk at recruiting fees.

They see it two ways:

1) Easier to pay, than review the legal recourses of not paying

2) If they sourced one good candidate from your site, they may source another. So best not to get booted from the platform for delinquency.

[krab]

It might be different for purely online deals. But for companies working with a local agency, it's definitely not worth the reputation risk.

[rtpg]

I think a huge reason this works is that this site is essentially focused on a small niche: (mostly) Tokyo-based, (mostly) English-heavy IT companies.

Everyone knows each other, it’s a high trust environment anyways, and it’s hard to recruit in the first place!

And like the article says, recruiting in Tokyo is kind of insanely expensive, mainly cuz it’s scaled to salary and a big chunk.

But I think the fact that this is… I mean it’s a lifestyle business? I don’t believe this is gunning for Indeed… it makes it easier

[stewx]

As of 2019, Tokyo was far cheaper in terms of monthly rent than some major American cities.

Rent in Tokyo for a 2BR apartment: $1,903/mo

Rent in NYC for a 2BR apartment: $2,909/mo

Rent in San Francisco for a 2BR apartment: $3,631/mo

Src: Deutsche Bank https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000049...

[Morgawr]

> Rent in Tokyo for a 2BR apartment: $1,903/mo

NOTE: I wouldn't trust most sources of this kind of data you see online (I can't open your link so I can't verify it) because you simply cannot compare rent prices like that "across cultures".

And I don't mean just "Japanese apartments are small" (this is mostly a myth, although they are smaller on average), I simply mean that it's pretty much impossible to define what "city center" is in Tokyo, and having a good public transportation system and multiple city centers (Tokyo is 23 cities, and more) means that it's kinda hard to find a uniform measure that is comparable to most other cities in the world.

Tokyo is incredibly cheap for such a massive world capital/megalopolis. I can't stress this enough, as someone who's moved to Tokyo from one of the most expensive (yet incredibly small) capitals of Europe as far as rent goes (Dublin). It was amazing to see the contrast.

$1900/mo in Tokyo for 2 bedroom apartment (I assume it'd be a so-called 2LDK) is actually quite overpriced if you know which neighborhoods to look at (and yes, you can still consider them "city center"). I live 20 minutes away from Shinjuku, 30 minutes away from Shibuya, 10 minutes away from Ikebukuro (all three massive city centers) and I pay the equivalent of $1300/mo for a 3LDK apartment (3 bedroom, one living/dining room, one kitchen).

Obviously, if you want to be fancy and live in cool or pricy neighborhoods like Ebisu or Daikanyama or most of Setagaya-ku you're gonna pay much more, still... Definitely waaaay less than other places like San Francisco or New York.

[stewx]

> I wouldn't trust most sources of this kind of data you see online

Same. But this is published by a large global financial institution, not a crowd-sourced low-quality web site.

[Morgawr]

The problem isn't the data itself. The problem is how the data is interpreted, unfortunately. Lifestyles don't map properly between cities, countries, and cultures. In the US you need a car in a lot of cities, you might want/expect a "suburban" lifestyle (large house, garden, etc). Healthcare might be an overlooked cost. Taxes and social contributions (pension, etc) might affect all these numbers. It's incredibly easy to just look at the raw data and go "X is more expensive than Y" but in reality the situation is much more nuanced than that.

Also, as I said, Tokyo really isn't one city, it's a huge gigantic collection of multiple cities with an incredible public transport system that really doesn't make you feel like you're not living in a "city center" even if you aren't in one. I can step out of my house and be in a "downtown" area in less than 10 minutes by just taking one train and there is one train every 2-3 minutes.

If anything, I found https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/ usually has a much more nuanced breakdown of actual living expenses across cities, although their rent metrics also are quite incorrect because the way rent and housing space is measured in Japan doesn't quite fit a western standard unit of measure.

[mcqueenjordan]

I'll preface this with: A lot of what you're saying resonates a lot.

That being said, I think what you're saying about being unable to compare rent prices more or less boils down to "ceteris paribus". Of course, not all else is equal, but it's still relatively meaningful to compare rent statistics, especially considering that it tends to be a dominating cost term. And, directionally speaking, the figures they quoted ultimately led them to a conclusion that I believe is right.

[rtpg]

i was talking about recruiting costs. I know Tokyo is cheap(er than many places)

[adventured]

Tokyo is routinely ranked among the ~5-10 most expensive cities in the world to live in:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/world-most-expensive-citi...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonytellez/2022/06/29/these-...

[hardolaf]

That's only because all of those comparisons assume cars are free and not part of your living expenses. People in the USA often save money moving to Chicago and NYC because they can get rid of their cars. So yes, the rent is expensive and buying is expensive... but is it really?

The average difference in cost between buying in Chicago versus buying in the suburbs of Chicago is the price of two median cars (~$60K difference total). Over a 30 year mortgage, in the suburbs, you'd probably buy 2-3 cars per adult. If living in the city let's you go to down to 0.5 cars per adult or even 0 cars per adult, then you've broke even or saved money. Heck, even just having a reasonably priced car in the city, driving less, and having leisure use insurance on your vehicle because you don't commute via car can result in thousands per year in savings even after you pay for parking.

[Morgawr]

Let me tell you, I can guarantee you, that's bollocks.

[rtpg]

Yeah that’s just a lie. Those measurements tend to consider purchase cost at a fixed square meter, and doesn’t consider changes in lifestyles as well. Every expat in Tokyo from another big city could confirm this

[anonymoushn]

Tokyo is substantially cheaper to live in than most cities tech workers would live in in the US.

[tagawa]

The comment was about the cost of recruiting, not renting.

[thematrixturtle]

Japan is a high-trust society. I recently made a booking at a rather expensive inn (ryokan), whose T&C says there are high cancellation fees if you don't show up, but was not required to hand over credit card details or anything else than could enforce this.

[unsignedint]

You may see the shift in this though. There seems to be increasing cases for no-shows reported time to time in media, and thus, I wouldn't be surprised if more and more place would start requiring credit cards or deposits.

[lozenge]

Would you rather - save the expense of the agency fee (3 months salary) but lose access to the job board which has already found you one good candidate, or pay it and stay on the job board?

Keeping in mind that the employees are likely staying much longer than 2-3 years, because Japan.

[Varqu]

Plus burn the bridge completely in an industry where reputation is one of the key aspects?

And on top of that risk a potential legal action?

[6DM]

Companies pay recruiters an insane fee to hire us. $300 is a paltry sum and not worth fighting over. I doubt this is a big problem. It's not zero companies doing this, but I'd be surprised if it was 80% of the listings trying to avoid paying.

[jiggywiggy]

It works if you have an ongoing relationship with your clients

[polote]

That's how any recruiting agency works no ? At least in France it works the same way

[Aeolun]

By the time you get anyone to post on your website you've already interacted enough with the people in the company to make them want to pay you.

Presumably they charge much less (10% yearly salary) than a normal recruiter would.

[elktea]

keep reading, candidates get a little something if they tell the site they used it to get hired

[Adrig]

I heard a similar story from a guy who put in relation brands with professionals of the event industry. According to him, not having to put in place and enforce a strict control gave him a lot of bandwidth to work on more impactful parts of his projects. Surprisingly, he made good bucks with this approach... I guess even businesses can be more honest than expected.

[bfuller]

Business can totally be done in a fair and ethical way, that's just not western culture. Here you get promoted for stomping on someones neck with your boot

[neilv]

The other day, a career site offered me some amount of money if I told them when I found a job with a company there. (It might've been angel.co, and $150, not certain.)

I guessed that they got paid at least partly as a function of hires, and this incentived disclosure from hirees was a way of keeping its customer companies honest.

[jsty]

Not sure how prevalent LinkedIn or a similar service is in Japan, but I'd imagine it'd be pretty easy to track how many clicks a customer was getting and investigating any that had anomalously high click / hire ratios.

[etdev]

Yep this is a major part of my strategy (Hi, I'm the guy who built the site).

Like I mention in the post, I have emails, names and URLs for everyone who applies.

I also know how many applicants it normally takes to get 1 placement. So I can easily check which jobs are getting a suspiciously high number of applicants with no successful placements.

And I can reach out to all those applicants with the gift card offer, or take other measures to gather data about them and cross-check it with the company name etc.

This plus the late fee plus the fact that I'm in Japan makes the business model viable.

[j0hnyl]

I think maybe it works due to cultural reasons - Japanese seem quite honest.

[julienfr112]

in Japan only