[ghaff]

I dunno.

>and suitable backup devices

First of all, I wonder how many people actually have suitable backup devices.

Secondly, stuff does happen. There are a lot of circumstances where a very simple compass and map--and knowledge that doesn't require elite M&C navigation skills can be the difference between "Um, I have no idea where I am and how to get home" and "Damn, I guess I need to do this the old fashioned way." Yes, there are conditions and locations where the "old fashioned way" is really difficult to do. But often there are trails and some visibility and you just need some basic ability to read a map and know what direction you're headed in.

Do I bother when I know an area and the weather is good? Nope. But for anything more advanced, I carry a map and compass as pretty cheap and easy insurance.

[daleharvey]

> First of all, I wonder how many people actually have suitable backup devices.

Virtually every group of people will have multiple backup devices, for people going solo it something that should (but isn't) recommended.

> Secondly, stuff does happen.

Stuff does and in every case if you want to follow a route having a little dot that shows you exactly where you are in relation to that route is better than having a map and compass. I am not sure why you are replying to my point as if it is not a choice for people to carry a phone with them but somewhat makes the point.

A properly prepared phone is a map and compass, it does everything a map and compass can do and then adds an extra useful feature of "and this is exactly where you are"

[ghaff]

I often hike by myself and, in general, try not to depend on other people having things unless pre-arranged.

I certainly use phone apps--including the Ordinance Survey app in the UK, which is very good. But if I'm hiking in an unfamiliar area, yes, I also do carry a map and compass because that seems like a low cost and effort backup. I'm absolutely not arguing against using a smartphone app as primary navigation. But I do also encourage having backup.

[daleharvey]

Yeh I often go solo and after a few experiences, particularly if its unfamiliar, I try to make sure to have a charged backup device with routes etc loaded.

Similiarly I am not arguing against people using a map and compass, but I think the current advice which is entirely focused on map and compass with little guidance for phone users (which if it exists, is always caveated) has a lot more to do with outdoors peoples notions of technological purity and less to do with public health

[ghaff]

I think we're actually in mostly violent agreement,

The ten essentials or whatever you want to call them are probably rather outdated.

I still think throwing a map and compass in your pack and having at least a bare minimum knowledge of how to use them is useful insurance in an unfamiliar area. But understanding mostly simple processes/backups for GPS is quite important as well. Details vary by circumstance/weather/etc. but simple steps in terms of downloading maps/having backup chargers/even a backup device/etc. are useful and I don't think have generally made it into basic hiking safety advice.

It's really hard at this point to credibly argue that "the ten essentials" don't include a smartphone.

[Rebelgecko]

Maybe Scottish hikers are more prepared, but probably 90% of people I see hiking would be screwed without cell service. The SPOT trackers are pretty rare, outside of the backpacking crowd

[aembleton]

You can get offline maps with AlpineQuest, OS Maps, mapy.cz and others. You do not need cell service. I recommend using airplane mode to preserve battery.