[fesc]

Man, there’s a lot of negative comments here. Just to add a different experience: my company loves Nix, it makes it really easy to integrate new tools into the dev/build environment without needing to document which packages, configuration, … a developer needs to apply to their machine manually.

There’s nothing like it, really.

[bogota]

I dont think anyone is being negative at least not the top level comments i read. I like nix but i gave it a test run at my company and no one could figure out how to make any change that wasn’t a copy and paste of what i had done.

The docs don’t help much unless you really go diving into them and most people who just want the software to run don’t want to spend the time learning it. I don’t blame them.

This is a very valid criticism of any software. Its why things like docker (containerization) win out even when it was technically around for years before. Someone made it easy to use so people used it.

[seqizz]

Same here. Using Nix and Nixos for years, I have prepared nix-shell and packaging files for our internal tools and committed to internal gitlab. No one ever touched it even after multiple presentations from me. No way to find your way out, especially if you don't have functional programming background.

[octoberfranklin]

> most people who just want the software to run don’t want to spend the time learning it

these people are not nix's target audience

[bogota]

I personally think that is a bit of a cop out. Most developers should be able to do basic tasks in a system that has been setup by an expert user.

I think bazel is an ok example of this. Its a pretty complex build system but expert users can build macros and rules that the average developer can consume without having to know a ton about everything that is happening.

IMO the ability to do the above at some level is the sign of well crafted software.

[qudat]

Relegated to a niche subgroup, I see. There's a significant difference between spending time learning a tool and sinking dozens and dozens of hours into a tool in order to perform tasks that are so basic for other package managers.

[rgoulter]

I don't think tasks which are basic for other package managers require dozens and dozens of hours sunk into nix to learn.

"Niche subgroup" is about right in its current state. With text editors, VSCode is powerful and accessible to use, but there are power users who prefer to spend time learning Emacs.

With package managers, nix is a power tool. It's not as accessible as it could be. But, the idea of "spend time learning a tool" isn't unusual in software development.

[pdimitar]

Spending time to learn a tool is a standard requirement in our profession. Nobody but the laziest ones has a problem with it.

Programs like Nix, Emacs, VIM, Git -- they require a lot of time sunk into them to sometimes get even to basic productivity.

The latter is not okay. While I think it's unavoidable for Emacs and VIM, I've seen enough Nix and Git recipes and confusing command line aliases to conclude that Nix (and Git) can be much more friendly and have a smoother learning curve.

The ugly truth is that its community is not interested in that and even looks down on busy programmers who want to memorize a few shorthands and move on, which is a very valid mindset to have and I'm not okay with people looking down on it.

To me it looks like Nix is firmly headed in the direction of a yet another tool with a very good idea whose authors don't want to make it more usable and thus it remained a niche curiosity for people with too much free time... and the occasional corporate programming team that's perfectly served by its niche benefits.

I'd hate for Nix to become that. But at the moment everything points at this being its fate.

[rgoulter]

> To me it looks like Nix is firmly headed in the direction of a yet another tool with a very good idea whose authors don't want to make it more usable and thus it remained a niche curiosity for people with too much free time.

What gives you the indication things are headed in the wrong way?

I think things are heading in the right direction.

The last year has seen nix flakes release to the stable nix version. Flakes are a big UX improvement to Nix.

The last few releases of nix have added improved support for debugging nix code. (Poor debugging UX was highlighted as a major pain point).

Efforts from major contributors are acknowledging the importance of improving documentation. - From the latest community survey, the steep learning curve and poor onboarding experience was noted as a major pain point. etc.

> even looks down on busy programmers who want to memorize a few shorthands and move on

Ehhh.

I don't think it's fair to say "vim is a bad tool because it requires learning to get used to it". -- Fortunately, developers aren't stuck between nano and vi, they've got highly accessible tools like VSCode.. or on the command line, even micro https://github.com/zyedidia/micro

[oneplane]

There are many things like it. For example, managed operating environments where the user doesn't need to do anything (and actually can't do anything). Or disposable environments like VMs and containers.

Sure, it's not the same as massaging a special pet operating system over and over, but most people that need to produce software hopped off of that bandwagon years ago.

I get that companies that do functional programming and linux and linux on the desktop exist, but I have yet to find any company that does that at scale, at a good profit, versus competition. That's not to say that "therefore, Nix is bad", it's just that the problem isn't a technical one that nix suddenly fixes. It seems to be only a problem if you're stuck in yum/apt all day and need to get a fix to get out of that.

[otabdeveloper4]

Nix is not an operating system. It can be used to build operating systems easily, though.

Also, there isn't anything "functional" about Nix. It's a nice sales pitch, but underneath it's just a thin layer over bash scripts and environment variables.

[octoberfranklin]

Nix is a metaprogramming language for bash.

The metalanguage is indeed purely functional. The object language (bash) isn't.

[otabdeveloper4]

Right. You still end up mostly writing bash scripts when wrangling Nix. It's not some sort of ivory tower Haskelish hermetic ecosystem, it's just a very nice way to make bash scripting sane.

[yencabulator]

I don't think I'd call adding yet another layer of escaping syntax "sane".

[octoberfranklin]

Nix uses string antiquotation, not string escaping. It's one of very few languages which has it. And yes, it is sane, very sane. The only sane solution to this problem.

Edolstra's thesis advisor was the first to create a scannerless GLR parser:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scannerless_parsing

The first versions of Nix used a scannerless GLR parser, because it's the only way to prototype sophisticated features like antiquotation without going completely mad. Once the syntax was completely locked down it was rewritten with a separate scanner and LR(something) parser, but they're intricately entwined. The scannerful, non-GLR parser is faster but basically frozen and extremely difficult to modify. Fortunately Nix's syntax has been exceptionally stable for the last decade or more.

True string antiquotation is a feature that every language should have, but unfortunately with current technology it forces you to choose between a slow parser or a fast parser that's almost impossible to modify.

Some languages have "string interpolation" which is a weaker, more fragile form of antiquotation.

[whateveracct]

Nix attracts whiners - 90% people happy with it are happy using it and not bothering to waste energy arguing with bad attitudes online.

[rgoulter]

Well, it's easier to be contrarian online.

Though I anticipate better discussion from "nix didn't suit me" than "nix works".

Looking at Nix's community survey, there's been a big growth in the community over the last year or two. I think most who try nix like it, and see it as so obviously a good technology.

[whateveracct]

My pet peeve (which is present in this thread!) is when people link Nix discourse or github discussions and say "look how ridiculous it is to do XYZ in Nix."

The community discussions are one of the best parts of Nix. People are super helpful and work together to solve novel problems all the time!

In fact, those threads are people doing something about "nix didn't work for me."

[hamandcheese]

Are you hiring?

[alch-]

I'm not GP, but my company's experience[0] is the same, and we're definitely hiring. Seeing Nix in the tech stack was one of my reasons for applying :)

[0] https://www.channable.com/tech/nix-is-the-ultimate-devops-to...