[bogota]

I dont think anyone is being negative at least not the top level comments i read. I like nix but i gave it a test run at my company and no one could figure out how to make any change that wasn’t a copy and paste of what i had done.

The docs don’t help much unless you really go diving into them and most people who just want the software to run don’t want to spend the time learning it. I don’t blame them.

This is a very valid criticism of any software. Its why things like docker (containerization) win out even when it was technically around for years before. Someone made it easy to use so people used it.

[seqizz]

Same here. Using Nix and Nixos for years, I have prepared nix-shell and packaging files for our internal tools and committed to internal gitlab. No one ever touched it even after multiple presentations from me. No way to find your way out, especially if you don't have functional programming background.

[octoberfranklin]

> most people who just want the software to run don’t want to spend the time learning it

these people are not nix's target audience

[bogota]

I personally think that is a bit of a cop out. Most developers should be able to do basic tasks in a system that has been setup by an expert user.

I think bazel is an ok example of this. Its a pretty complex build system but expert users can build macros and rules that the average developer can consume without having to know a ton about everything that is happening.

IMO the ability to do the above at some level is the sign of well crafted software.

[qudat]

Relegated to a niche subgroup, I see. There's a significant difference between spending time learning a tool and sinking dozens and dozens of hours into a tool in order to perform tasks that are so basic for other package managers.

[rgoulter]

I don't think tasks which are basic for other package managers require dozens and dozens of hours sunk into nix to learn.

"Niche subgroup" is about right in its current state. With text editors, VSCode is powerful and accessible to use, but there are power users who prefer to spend time learning Emacs.

With package managers, nix is a power tool. It's not as accessible as it could be. But, the idea of "spend time learning a tool" isn't unusual in software development.

[pdimitar]

Spending time to learn a tool is a standard requirement in our profession. Nobody but the laziest ones has a problem with it.

Programs like Nix, Emacs, VIM, Git -- they require a lot of time sunk into them to sometimes get even to basic productivity.

The latter is not okay. While I think it's unavoidable for Emacs and VIM, I've seen enough Nix and Git recipes and confusing command line aliases to conclude that Nix (and Git) can be much more friendly and have a smoother learning curve.

The ugly truth is that its community is not interested in that and even looks down on busy programmers who want to memorize a few shorthands and move on, which is a very valid mindset to have and I'm not okay with people looking down on it.

To me it looks like Nix is firmly headed in the direction of a yet another tool with a very good idea whose authors don't want to make it more usable and thus it remained a niche curiosity for people with too much free time... and the occasional corporate programming team that's perfectly served by its niche benefits.

I'd hate for Nix to become that. But at the moment everything points at this being its fate.

[rgoulter]

> To me it looks like Nix is firmly headed in the direction of a yet another tool with a very good idea whose authors don't want to make it more usable and thus it remained a niche curiosity for people with too much free time.

What gives you the indication things are headed in the wrong way?

I think things are heading in the right direction.

The last year has seen nix flakes release to the stable nix version. Flakes are a big UX improvement to Nix.

The last few releases of nix have added improved support for debugging nix code. (Poor debugging UX was highlighted as a major pain point).

Efforts from major contributors are acknowledging the importance of improving documentation. - From the latest community survey, the steep learning curve and poor onboarding experience was noted as a major pain point. etc.

> even looks down on busy programmers who want to memorize a few shorthands and move on

Ehhh.

I don't think it's fair to say "vim is a bad tool because it requires learning to get used to it". -- Fortunately, developers aren't stuck between nano and vi, they've got highly accessible tools like VSCode.. or on the command line, even micro https://github.com/zyedidia/micro

[pdimitar]

> What gives you the indication things are headed in the wrong way?

Because it started swinging in the direction of "you are not the target audience" while at the same time raving about how it's the solution to the software packaging and distribution problems -- which, pardon if mistaken, are very ambitious and big goals that affect VERY different groups of people.

Telling any of them "it's not made for you" is not doing their cause any favors.

One example: documentation and onboarding. A good amount of guides, both official and out there, still use the old-ish syntax while `nix <subcommand>` has been a thing for a while now.

...Also "flakes", "pills", really? Can we finally grow up and start using proper terminology? The cutesy jargon must go. Forever. This is not a kids game and not a hobby project anymore. You're writing software with extremely ambitious goals. Show some professionalism. I can close my eyes on that and have done so many times but I've personally known a good amount of engineering leaders that would deny usage of software on that basis alone.

Nix got to a part of its lifetime where marketing and onboarding have to be heavily prioritized and its community doesn't seem very keen on it. That dooms it to obscurity from where I am standing because I am one of those programmers that visit the website and are like: "What is this? Oh, that. How do we start? Like so? Cool. Oh... an error on the second command, seriously? OK, OK, let's just Google it -- huh, nothing. Yeah, frak that, bye".

The above has to be mercilessly chased and resolved at every occasion, aggressively. If not, Nix is going to be the next Snap / Flatpak.

And I really want to make it super clear if you're still with me: I want Nix to succeed. For now though I view it as a nascent tool that still has long ways to go. And I really wish they started learning from the mistakes of Git (confusing CLI, big docs that don't help one get onboarded quickly). But so far it's not looking good on these points.

Admittedly I last checked it out 7-ish months ago. I'll try checking it out every 3 months or so from now on. And I hope I am wrong.