[jowsie]

If you google KARR Honda or KARR Alarm you should find some better information.

I found identical looking devices by using Google Lens and focusing on just the black box with the green button.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/never-buy-car-alar...

https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisit/comments/rnr48t/found_unde...

https://www.reddit.com/r/subaru/comments/7m9dv9/mysterious_b...

[morpheuskafka]

How is it allowed for a dealer to cut wires and install a non OEM-approved electronic device onto the CAN bus? This seems like it would void all the manufacturer warranties and potentially create liability for the manufacturer if it malfunctions.

[userbinator]

This seems like it would void all the manufacturer warranties

That's what the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty... is for.

[BoorishBears]

Not really...

This is a complete hack job and I doubt there is a single component related to the electrical system that wouldn't be an easy denial from Honda unless the dealer played along... and in a modern car so much is tied to the electrical system that, while technically they didn't just void their entire warranty, they did just gut it to the point of being nearly useless.

[hedora]

When we bought a brand new GMC, Dealer A installed a counterfeit backup camera.

Half a tank of gas later, Dealer B claimed the warranty was void because of the camera. We brought it in because the radio kept freaking out and it would drain the battery if left off over night.

There was an active recall for both those issues. Dealer C fixed them by installing a firmware update.

[api]

Has anyone ever had an actual good experience with an auto dealer?

[sgtnoodle]

Our certified pre-owned GMC Acadia spent two months in the dealership. They needed a special tool to fix an emissions issue. GM said it would take 6 months to get the tool, so the dealership ordered one on eBay. They gave us a rental car the whole time, and even swapped it out for a premium trimmed GMC Terrain when we went on a family road trip.

The dealership had previously repaired the moon roof, and inadvertently damaged the headliner. So, while working on the emissions issue they replaced the whole headliner. The replacement is a little cheesier than from the factory, but good enough.

There's still an exterior rattle that they claimed they fixed 3 times now. At least they're trying. Last time I took it in, they removed several trim pieces and drove it around. I'm just going to have to track it down myself I guess.

I bought a new Mustang in 2010, and paid for the 5 year extended service plan. The hood paint corroded and the dealership repainted it, and gave me a rental car for the week. The hood has since corroded again and it's out of warranty now. I am mulling over splurging on a new paint job, with a classic Mustang racing stripe.

Buying the Mustang, I went to three dealerships. The first one, I got a test drive, and then the salesmen just walked away. I think he assumed I wasn't serious when I said I was buying a car that day. The second dealership, the salesman was super sleazy and pushy, and so I walked away. The third dealership, the salesman was really relaxed and professional. He asked if I was financing, and when I said no, he said he didn't like to waste time haggling and was happy just to move inventory. He offered me a price just $200 above the friends-and-family x-code price.

[temp_praneshp]

We got a car two weeks ago, the experience at the Acura dealership was pretty good (of course, we got presented the bullshit warranty stuff in the finance manager's room, but we were able to turn everything down for a couple of minutes and things were ok).

We also had a good time at a Toyota dealership, but any car buying with them had a $6290 markup....

[devoutsalsa]

Next time try generating the sales documentation using markdown.

[temp_praneshp]

Re. markdown, why should I? Also, what's sales documentation, is that something I should have received?

Given the state of the market, choosing between many cars wasn't an option, but outside of that, I care that the process is fast, there aren't sneaky charges, and the interaction is respectful. I prefer all my paperwork printed out, and that's what they did by default.

[judge2020]

Manufacturers must prove a modification to a car caused the fault in a product to deny an otherwise-covered warranty issue, regardless of who installed it. As for if this device kills the battery or what-have-you, i'm not sure what sort of liability the dealership is taking.

[themulticaster]

Does this apply even if the manufacturer adds a clause like "any modification not authorized by [manufacturer] or performed by a [manufacturer]-approved repair shop voids the warranty"?

[judge2020]

It doesn’t matter what the manufacturer says, they cant void the entire car’s warranty due to a modification. If a 3p repair shop performs eg. a brake pad replacement and then your brakes fail, then that repair shop is liable and not the manufacturer.

[NonNefarious]

The law isn't limited to cars.

[franga2000]

It is in practice. Rooting a smartphone? Overclocking your CPU? Replacing parts in a laptop?

[hedora]

All of those things are protected. If the firmware melts the board, the CPU overheats, or the replacement part shorts something out then the warranty is void. However, if the failures are unrelated, then it's fine.

I once caught a motherboard on fire, then found some unrelated mechanical issues with it. (It still worked, except for the bad connector.)

The burn marks were cosmetic, and the shop sent me a DOA replacement. (That's more a story about the shop being awesome, but they were technically legally obligated to honor the warranty.)

[gambiting]

Replacing parts in a laptop absolutely does not void your warranty no matter what the manufacturer says.

[franga2000]

What do you mean "no matter what the manufacturer says"? If the manufacturer says your warranty is void - it is. If they broke a law in doing so is a separate issue that you would have to battle out in court.

When your 800$ laptop's speakers start buzzing and the service center says you need to pay 80$ for the repair because the tamper seal on the RAM was broken, are you really going to spend 30k and a year of your free time to sue them over it?

[nopenopenopeno]

The relevant context is, though.

[AH4oFVbPT4f8]

Because they didn’t think they would get caught

[honkdaddy]

It's amusing to me that someone would go through the effort of deconstructing it, writing a gist, and posting it on HN before literally just googling "device under steering wheel" and seeing other people posting about the _exact_ same device.

People tend to imagine their lives are more interesting and worthy of surveillance than they really are :)

[rocqua]

He googled the device name, which I would also expect to show up in posts by others.

[burrows]

Yeah, people are just imagining the NSA led global surveillance apparatus.

[kersplody]

Nah, the NSA doesn't need to bug your car. All cars after 2016 or so come pre bugged with an OnStar/StarLink/BMW Assist Remote/etc Telemetry System continuously sending data over 3G or LTE. Conveniently, the manufacturers already sell this data in an "anonymised" form. (cough Otonomo cough Wejo).

Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA when it comes to privacy -- you have none -- your life's data is to be mined, brokered, and sold to the highest bidder.

The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.

[ClumsyPilot]

> "Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA"

We are in the long swing where people think only state tyrany matters. They forgot how bad private tyrany can get, of robber barons were.

[mellavora]

or state-enabled abortion vigilantes.

[toast0]

Welp, my car is now effectively bug free. It shipped with 2G, got a free upgrade to 3G, because 2G was being shut down. It has an optional upgrade to LTE but the features don't justify the cost and the mounting is derpy (new modem is a different shape, so it's velcro + double sided tape)

[yonaguska]

> Private companies are so much scarier than the NSA when it comes to privacy -- you have none -- your life's data is to be mined, brokered, and sold to the highest bidder.

Intel agencies privatize their spying to get around warrants. Private companies spying on you are not a far step from the NSA spying on you directly.

> The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.

Hah. If you have any political aspiration at all, you are a potential target. FBI lied to attain FISA warrants, and the lawyer responsible got a slap on the wrist. DC juries will never convict one of their own, there is zero accountability at this point.

[burrows]

> The NSA only cares about you if you are talking to a small number of known hostile foreign people who are already a party to a FISA warrant.

Why are you so confident about who the NSA cares about?

COINTELPRO anyone?

[tinus_hn]

Or if you are making a phone call or transferring data over the internet. They might not be bugging just any guy but they track everything they can.

[nephanth]

I wonder how those telemetry systems work for EU customers. Cause that sounds pretty much illegal under GDPR (non-consented tracking, data stored overseas...)

[mellavora]

Works just fine. The major German carmakers have an alliance to share data, and treat cars as roving sensor networks.

The data is used for improved road safety (real-time traffic jam awareness) and also so premium clients can find parking spots.

[closewith]

Do you have a source for these claims? Without informed consent, they would be significant breaches of both national data protection legislation and the GDPR.

[andrepd]

I wonder what percentage of people are aware that their car is tracking them at all times. Surveillance capitalism is scary.

[bsenftner]

And this is exactly why I have a manufactured in 2016 Subaru. I saw this regulation going into effect, investigated what vehicle would last the longest, and purchased the last available non-snitch personal vehicle generation.

We're in the initial stages of a new dark age for humanity. Surveillance Capitalism and our generalized Adult Immaturity is going to swallow the free world, and it may be hundreds of years before actual human maturity develops to allow whatever comes after.

[Barrin92]

the NSA is certainly real, the likelihood of them bugging your car unless you're smuggling nuclear secrets is rather low

the three letter agencies don't care about people who play video games and watch cat videos all day

[natch]

> unless you're smuggling nuclear secrets

unless you're suspected of smuggling nuclear secrets

ftfy

[brigandish]

And yet they engage in mass surveillance, even of their own citizens.

[iratewizard]

No, no. That's done by the contractors they ship data to. Otherwise they would be breaking federal laws.

[worker767424]

For several months, keyless entry stopped working on my car. It fixed itself. My unlikely conspiracy theory is I was being tracked and interference kept the keyfob from working.

[markhahn]

never attribute to malice (or conspiracy) what can be explained by incompetence (or bugs).

[burrows]

Is there a reason it is better to attribute to incompetence? Or are you just mindlessly parroting shit

[influx]

If this is America, it would be the FBI who has jurisdiction. If this was outside America, CIA would be more likely to be installing hardware on a vehicle. If you hear the guys breathing on your phone line, that's probably the NSA ;)

[jll29]

depends what's embedded in your cat videos.

[867-5309]

sublimiaow message? stegaMOGraph?

[burrows]

If your car has a networked computer it’s probably bugged/backdoored imo.

(Talking out of my ass)

[lrvick]

If it is a Tesla they advertise this as a feature.

[nebulousthree]

You make it sound like the NSA can never fail. If it's monitoring you then you are likely doing something deserving of monitoring. They can be wrong though and you'll still have been spied on and information collected for future use. Consider a career in politics, perhaps?

[behringer]

The NSA is known to surveil people who are completely harmless, including spouses, loved ones, romantic interests, etc.

[thinkingemote]

They are imagining being part or the target of a conspiracy. It's a paranoid quirk of American politics, all sides see scheming and conspiracy.

Catholics, Communists, Woke subversives, or white supremacists. If you are part of American politics there is a mainstream conspiracy theory that your group has.

[hannasanarion]

The NSA isn't interested enough in you to send somebody to your house to break into your car and install a gps tracker.

[kevinh456]

Imagine if they got some in at an F&I company and convinced car dealers to install the surveillance without the installers even being aware of it

[blakespot]

KARR - Knight Automated Roving Robot

[midnitewarrior]

I prefer K.I.T.T.

[riffic]

I wouldn't buy a new car without demanding this to be removed and restored to factory condition at the pre-delivery inspection.

used cars, on the other hand, are a different story. complain to American Honda perhaps? Contact info for anyone's convenience:

https://owners.honda.com/help/customer-relations

American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

Honda Automobile Customer Service

Mail Stop: CHI-5

1919 Torrance Blvd.

Torrance, CA 90501-2746

[jeffbee]

Nice, that's exactly the switchgear at least.