[semenko]

Carbon costs per-vehicle can be calculated based on your local grid power source, duration of ownership, and more: https://www.carboncounter.com/ -- be sure to click the "Customize" tab

If your annual driving distance is low (<5,000 miles) and your grid is relatively dirty (e.g. the midwest [SRMW] grid), a range of EVs have more CO2 emissions/mile than conventional internal combustion vehicles.

(This is a project from the MIT Tranick lab / http://trancik.mit.edu/)

[barbazoo]

> If your annual driving distance is low and your grid is relatively dirty, a range of EVs have more CO2 emissions/mile than conventional internal combustion vehicles.

Right now. I'm sure you know but the beauty of this is that those cars' emissions can be reduced without changing anything about the car simply by changing the fuel used to generate electricity which can (and has to) happen in the future.

[mountainriver]

Yes this is a key point lost on many when I hear this argument. It doesn’t mean to not buy an EV, it’s still a great idea, we just need to do more work on our power sources

[Robotbeat]

Within a decade from when my Volt was manufactured to when I sold it, the carbon emissions per kWh dropped from 500g/kWh to 372g/kWh. Gasoline emissions have not dropped and might even be getting worse as we have to reach further to get nonconventional oil from tar sands, etc.

[acchow]

Those cars' emissions can also be made worse over time without changing anything about the car simply by changing the fuel used to generate electricity....

Such as Germany currently decommissioning nuclear plants...

[barbazoo]

That didn't stop Germany from reducing its oil, coal and gas consumption though. Those reduced over time or at least stayed the same while renewables steadily increased.

Source: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c...

[dieortin]

The most dirty a grid can be is just the same as an ICE car, and even then the EV would still be way more efficient.

[thinkcontext]

Related data on CO2 intensity on grids, this shows a map based on EPA data. It shows what the equivalent CO2 emissions would be between an average EV compared to a gas car. The worst in the lower 48 is SERC Midwest (parts of IL and MO) at around 42mpg, the best is upstate NY at 255mpg.

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/plug-in-or-gas-up-why...

[bsdetector]

Customize, click on West Virginia preset and graph uses 560 gCO2/kWh to EPA's 860 for WV for Electricity (charging). Select Idaho and graph uses 310 gCo2/kWh compared to EPA's 96.

https://www.epa.gov/egrid/data-explorer

Carboncounter seem to be using the eGRID subregions, but I'm not sure how much green power actually flows from southern Wisconsin all the way to western Virginia. Maybe there's a power expert here that can comment on whether state or eGRID subregion numbers are more appropriate.

That the graph origin is not 0,0 by default and includes tax credits doesn't inspire much confidence in their impartiality.

[vkhn]

One thing to note is power isn’t consistently generated M from the same source. Sometimes more wind, sometimes more solar, sometimes more gas. There’s currently a surplus of wind power overnight in that region and There are several companies teaming up with utilities to shift EV charging to lower cost, lower CO2 producing times.

This is a very complex problem to measure.

[standardUser]

The fundamental difference obviously being that electricity production can change significantly during the lifetime of a vehicle whereas energy production within the vehicle usually can not.

[throwaway894345]

Is the midwest grid particularly dirty? I’m pretty sure Iowa is like ~60% wind and a good chunk of Illinois is nuclear.

[thinkcontext]

SERC Midwest (parts of IL and MO) is the dirtiest in the lower 48. EPA EGRID has the data.

https://www.epa.gov/egrid

or there's a map

https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/plug-in-or-gas-up-why...

[throwaway894345]

Seems like the overwhelming majority of the midwest is outperforming Missouri/Illinois, but yeah, that region is performing poorly.

I’m also disappointed that the second link didn’t include the emissions in the manufacture of the vehicle itself, which will be higher for EVs than gasoline cars, but from what I’ve read[0] the lifetime emissions of an EV are far far lower (breakeven point is about 10-15kmi).

[0]: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifeti...