[masklinn]

> We can regulate where industrial use can exist as separate laws

That's called zoning...

e.g. maximum-nuisance (or maximum-use) zoning: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sV5ETXDs_8M/Ux-axBTuF2I/AAAAAAAAAs...

> and get rid of the 97% of zoning that has been horrible for land use in the US

It's not like the zoning policy which causes those issues is a huge amount of stuff, the issue with american zoning is that it's exclusionary: each zone can only have one use, and municipalities micromanage zones.

[voisin]

It isn’t just that it is exclusionary. It also micromanaged setbacks, heights, parking ratios, amount of green space, etc etc etc. All of this adds costs and decreases diversity that you see in dense European/Asian cities that have stood for Thousands of years.

There’s a pretence of knowledge that modern planners are smarter than all who have come before, and the result has been an abject failure that planners won’t admit to.

[masklinn]

> It isn’t just that it is exclusionary.

Oh no, far from it, but it’s the root.

> There’s a pretence of knowledge that modern planners are smarter than all who have come before, and the result has been an abject failure that planners won’t admit to.

They’re only a failure if you assume planning in the US is about sustainable, equitable, liveable spaces.

[voisin]

> They’re only a failure if you assume planning in the US is about sustainable, equitable, liveable spaces.

100%. Which is why I favour abolishing zoning bylaws. If it was truly about sustainability, equity, or creating living spaces designed for human flourishing, then I would support them, but it isn’t now and it never was.

[belligeront]

It is a huge amount of stuff: parking minimums, minimum setbacks, minimum lot sizes, height limits, maximums on number of units, density, architectural style, etc., etc., etc.

Zoning codes are massive and complex documents that require hugely specialized knowledge. And they are different in each municipality, so housing developers can't easily work across different municipalities. This also increases costs by making it harder to standardize building plans and use cheaper, more automated building techniques.

Compare this with Japan which has a small set of zoning uses set at the national level.

[NonNefarious]

And they're packed in like sardines. People who want to live like that can go live in city centers.

Zoning allows people to choose the type of neighborhood they want to live in. How are you going to accomplish that without it?

[0x53]

So, if we allow people to live closer together there will somehow be less space?

There will always be suburbs in America. If people want to live in the suburbs it will always be possible here. Zoning actually prevents people from living where they want to because only single family homes are allowed to be built.

[NonNefarious]

That doesn't follow at all. How will there "always be suburbs" if they're not protected from wholesale buyout and replacement with high-density housing blocks by developers and corporations?

Your last statement doesn't make sense either. If you want to live in a single-family-zoned area... you want to live there. If you don't like it, don't live there. WTF is the confusion?

[0x53]

There will always be suburbs because a lot of Americans want suburbs (see this thread). America has plenty of land and so if people want suburbs and there is plenty of land to build them I don’t see them going extinct. In other places in this thread people point to places like Japan lacking suburbs, but the difference is that America is huge. If we allow denser zoning there will come a point at which enough dense housing has been built for the people that want it, right now that isn’t possible because it isn’t allowed.

You said “if you don’t like it don’t live there”, I’m saying that I would love to live somewhere besides the suburbs, but as others have identified most nice areas that are dense walkable are very expensive because they are no longer legal to build

[NonNefarious]

"America has plenty of land and so if people want suburbs and there is plenty of land to build them"

Are you just floating nonsense to get attention? THEY'RE ALREADY BUILT. Why destroy them and then rebuild other ones elsewhere, instead of simply building the high-density communities in the "plenty of land" that you admit is available? That's just stupid.

"most nice areas that are dense walkable are very expensive because they are no longer legal to build"

That is bullshit. What dense area is "no longer legal to build?" Look at downtown L.A. It's not "illegal" to build there, and it's largely a shithole that could only benefit from a remake. Likewise for Koreatown and a lot of Hollywood. There's endless fake caterwauling about "the housing shortage," and California has just passed a monumentally corrupt bill that allows developers to construct 10 units where ONE house stands today... with no permits or review.

This allows the destruction of ALREADY-RESIDENTIAL areas, while doing nothing to provide "affordable" housing or to help the homeless... despite lies to the contrary being used to excuse its passage.

Meanwhile, huge buildings like former Macy's sit boarded-up in dying malls... areas that have already paid the price of super-high density, in the form of paved-over ground and tree removal. Why aren't THESE areas being turned residential, and offered to those who favor high-density living?

Because this entire movement is a lie, that's why. It's a sellout to developers.

[Pxtl]

> Zoning allows people to choose the type of neighborhood they want to live in.

Considering the massive shortage of housing in overly-micromanaged zoning areas, it has monumentally failed at this.

[dasv]

Fixed it:

> Zoning allows people _with enough money_ to choose the type of neighbourhood they want to live in.

[NonNefarious]

That's right. You're not ENTITLED to beachfront property or a penthouse in Manhattan.

Ruining neighborhoods for developers' profits isn't going to change that. The "abolish zoning" fraud WORSENS the economic divide by turning the entire country into renters.

Think it through.

[NonNefarious]

I love the caterwauling about a "shortage," as if everyone is entitled to move into an area and live on top of the people who are already there... who chose to live there because of the type of neighborhood it is.

Manhattan is full. The USA as a whole is not. Go live somewhere else.

[cuteboy19]

Zoning specifically outlaws certain kinds of neighbourhoods. That is the main purpose of zoning