[cgriswald]

In the early internet days, when I was young and learning HTML, the book I used to learn recommended asking permission to link to a website. I thought that was weird, but I was a rule follower then. So I, a kid, sent a message to the 'webmaster' of a local government site and dutifully asked permission to link to their home page.

The said no.

If I'm ever a super-villain, I'm using this as my origin story.

[WalterBright]

On the other hand, I've consistently found you can often get what you want just by asking for it. A lot of people seem unwilling to do this.

[GeertB]

In particular, if you're developing Free Software or Open Source Software, and a company wants to hire you, it is _expected_ that they're OK with you continuing to do so. If any contract says otherwise, explain that you need to keep doing what you're doing in order to stay at the level of expertise that you're at. If a future employer would not agree for you to keep doing that, you shouldn't sign.

[basicplus2]

I find that if you simply change the wording of their contract to what you are happy with, initial all your changes, sign all pages, sign it, photocopy it, and send it in, nobody rejects it.

Later when they try to hold you to the original contract, you simply ask them for the contract you signed..

This has worked for me everytime :)

[arghwhat]

Note that not notifying the other party of changes could possibly be construed as fraud, depending on what legal system you are under.

But even when notified of the changes, the other party is quite likely to accept reasonable changes when they have a fully signed copy, as it is more convenient than pushing back...

[tialaramex]

If they don't want the signed contract back, that's the first time I've seen it. Every employer I worked for wanted the contract back with a signature. Newer ones were OK with an electronic (not digital, just pixels instead of ink) signature but they all wanted a signature.

When they get the modified contract back that's their notification of your adjusted terms. Is it polite to ask them to print a modified contract? Yes. But it may not always be practical.

[This is not legal advice, duh]

Because employer/ employee is asymmetric (unless you're literally hired by an individual) my understanding is that it is good sense for them to prefer your amended contract if the terms you wanted are acceptable, because the law in many places says if you have a take-it-or-leave-it contract then the person in the "take it or leave it" position, here the employee, is entitled to interpret any ambiguous provisions in the most advantageous way. Having amended the contract, you are now on equal footing with the employer and any remaining ambiguity is resolved equitably which means less risk of nasty surprises for them.

[arghwhat]

They of course need the signed contract back - all parties need a copy with all necessary signatures.

My point is that you should not sneak in changes with the signature. If the contract is changed, you should notify the parties of the changes, not pretend you just signed their copy. If you do not notify them, it might be seen as an attempt to trick the other parties.

How that would play out depends on your local legal system, with options ranging from "too bad", "contract or clause invalidated or reverted", all the way to "prosecuted for fraud".

"Your should just have expected me to have changed the contract and compared it with the previous version to find all the changes!" is not an argument that would get court approval up here...

[dottedmag]

Wait until contracts start to come in DocuSign, where the only thing you can do is to scribe something obscene instead of a signature.

[jacquesm]

There is no way I will every use DocuSign. Think about it: the chances in the longer term of DocuSign being hacked approach '1', and that means that everybody that ever uploaded their signature to that site runs the risk of having other documents signed with that signature without the recourse that it wasn't them uploading their sig to some online service.

And then there is this:

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/com...

[na4ma4]

DocuSign doesn't even contain your signature, it just makes one up.

All the rental property agreements use DocuSign and my signature looks perfectly legible.

Unlike my real signature :)

[abawany]

Remember that some contracts protect against this intrinsically by stating that no amendments beyond those stated in print are valid.

[WalterBright]

Just line that clause out.

[arcastroe]

I loled. But genuinely curious. Is this tongue in cheek, or is it sound?

[WalterBright]

It's best to write down what you expect and get agreement on important matters like this.

[tialaramex]

It definitely doesn't hurt to ask questions, even if you don't always get answers

Many years ago I asked my employer why my salary was lower than the contractually agreed minimum salary for 21 year olds in their organisation. I never received a reply but I did receive a raise and pay backdated to the point where I was hired.

Years before that I asked my bank why I can't just use all the ATMs since they all have money in them and they're all connected to the same network. I never received a reply but some years later the ATMs were indeed all usable (of course, subsequently many began to charge money for withdrawals, so it's still worth going to the "right" ATM if you care)

More recently I asked my bank if they can avoid giving me a contactless capable credit card when they issue new cards. At first they said this was impossible, but when time came to renew my card and I mentioned being disappointed that it would now be contactless, the call taker said actually she can do that, she'll cancel the renewed card she's just had issued and send me one without contactless, but it will take a few days.

That card expired, and a few months ago I received its automatic replacement, this time it does have the contactless logo like all the others, but it came with a slim "Contactless-less" sheet explaining that the bank noticed I don't want a contactless card and have told this card not to allow contactless transactions despite the logo however, it is actually a contactless card and so if I change my mind I can just call the bank and activate the contactless feature.

[ You might wonder why I don't want a contactless card. Contactless credit cards can OK modestly sized payments based on proximity, which is convenient but clearly poses a risk of fraud I don't want. My phone is also capable of proximity based transactions, but it is not limited to some arbitrary size of transaction and I need to explicitly unlock it to allow the transaction. So, the phone "is" my credit card for the purposes of routine transactions, but it has better security. ]

[hakfoo]

I used contactless for a $150 purchase this weekend, and it seemed so strange. The shop was clearly trying to do the modern commerce setup, with tablets running some sort of Square product and not getting up to go to a central till to pay.

I work in fintech, and have a lot of contact with UK developers who mention "the contactless limits are creeping up from GBP30 to GBP100". This in a country which is way more familiar with modern card tech. Meanwhile, my American bank, which probably gets 250 calls a day asking "why does my card have a Wi-Fi logo on it?" will seemingly let me unload my entire account with a tap.

[jacquesm]

> Years before that I asked my bank why I can't just use all the ATMs since they all have money in them and they're all connected to the same network. I never received a reply but some years later the ATMs were indeed all usable (of course, subsequently many began to charge money for withdrawals, so it's still worth going to the "right" ATM if you care)

This happened not because of you asking but simply because the banks figured out that they only need one ATM in a certain region for all of the banks.

Never mind the subsequent service level reduction.

[exabrial]

I'd read up on how the protocol works... There could be a live "relay" attack available , but it's not like someone could just swipe your butt and make a bunch of cloned cards. The magstripe is more of a hazard than anything else as it the numbers on the front un-encrpyted.

[tialaramex]

I'm aware in considerable detail how EMV works, both for wired and wireless transactions. This was a choice made in light of my understanding of how flawed the technology is.

See Ross Anderson's extensive material (sorry there's a lot of other stuff in here too) at Light Blue Touchpaper (a reference to Cambridge University's traditional colour and the instructions on fireworks):

https://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/

[zarmin]

On the other other hand, ask for forgiveness not permission.

[WalterBright]

More than one person has come to me with a story that they'd developed a side project without notifying their employer, and now that it was done and they were distributing it were worried their employer was going to claim ownership.

I didn't have anything helpful to say. I've done side projects when I was working for Big Corps, but in every case notified management beforehand and got a written ok. Never had any trouble with it. When I've accepted job offers, I'd also provide a list of projects that were mine and had them sign off on it as a condition of employment. Never encountered any resistance to that, either.

But these poor people were sweating bullets imagining all the bad consequences of their employer finding out.

Just ask, in advance. If you're a valuable employee, they'll say ok. Never heard of one saying no. And they'll appreciate that you asked instead of sneaking around.

But be careful not to use company equipment.

[toast0]

> Just ask, in advance. If you're a valuable employee, they'll say ok. Never heard of one saying no. And they'll appreciate that you asked instead of sneaking around

Yahoo told me I couldn't participate in the Netflix recommendation challenge (not that I would have done well), and then 6 months later praised another Yahoo employee who did well in it. #notstillbitter

[WalterBright]

Yah, you have good cause to be bitter about that.

[hollerith]

The decisionmaker who praised is probably different from the one who told you no.

[egorfine]

Have you got that "no" in written?

[toast0]

It was in writting, yes. I don't think I still have access to it: I don't keep archives of employer email, but I did use yahoo-inc email from mail.yahoo.com, as was allowed and sometimes encouraged, from time to time, and continue to have some access to old work emails through that; this chain of mail could be in there, but I'm not going to look for the same reason I haven't purged all that. It's too much effort and I don't care enough.

[mhaberl]

Doesn’t it bother you that you have to ask some manager if you can do something (a side project) in your free time?

It sounds as you are their slave, and not an employee who works x hours per month for y amount of money.

Imagine a baker that has to ask the boss if he/she can bake a loaf of bread at home

[jhallenworld]

Well I had kind of the reverse situation: I wanted to contribute to Cygwin, owned by RedHat. RedHat would not accept my contributions unless I got a signed release from my employer, IBM at the time. Well I tried to get this signed release, but all I got was the run-around. Nobody would bother taking the risk. It's one of the reasons I left.

[WalterBright]

It's a good reason to leave, if the separate project is important to you.

[tuxie_]

I'm also surprised at how natural people talk about that, like it's totally ok your employer "owns" your free time.

[topkai22]

If that baker intends to sell that bread they also may run afoul of non competes.

See https://www.eater.com/2017/10/13/16459044/non-competes-chefs...

[tuxie_]

It's their free time, they can do whatever they want with it. If there is something unlawful or disloyal well then you deal with that situation, but you can't tell someone "I will tell you what you can do in your free time just in case you may do something I don't like".

Also, let's be honest, how much harm can a 1 person project do to a multi billion corp? It's a fallacy.

[WalterBright]

> Doesn’t it bother you that you have to ask some manager if you can do something (a side project) in your free time?

Not at all. A salaried position comes with more open-ended expectations than an hourly position.

Besides, why the resistance to simply asking making it open and honest and the boundaries clear? My agreements on those things tended to be 2 or 3 sentences. I'd sign it, I'd get a veep to sign it, make a copy, and file it away.

It's just good business to do such things.

[dtech]

Do you also ask them for permission when you want to go biking? Visit your mother? Throw a party? Draw a picture? Contribute to an open-source project? Smoke a cigarette? Build a gadget? Buy a house? Have a child?

What an employee does in their own time is 0 business of the employer, none of the above is different from the others in kind.

[usrn]

I've just been accumulating all my contributions for when I quit or come up with a good enough alias to contribute them under.

[tombert]

I might not have been a valuable employee, but I tried making a Plex clone in my free time when I was at Apple, asked if I could open source it, went all the way to the VP of tech to ask permission, just to be uncerimoniously told that it was not allowed, because they "really wanted me to be fully focused on Apple".

I'm not sure I agree at all that they'll say "ok" just because you're a valuable employee; I think you might have gotten lucky at your BigCorps.

[ncmncm]

Apple will be Apple.

But there are lots of other places to be.

[starfallg]

It really depends on the organisation, but from my observation (I, myself, never developed any side projects worth releasing so this is based on what others did), most large organisations are not like that. Legal and HR specifically are very risk averse, so permission is usually denied by default, unless there is a overriding benefit to the company (or someone else to take the hit when things go wrong, a very cynical take I know).

Ethically speaking, I would think that as a principle, employees should never agree to ask the employer for permission to do things in their own time, for their own purposes, outside of the area of the business. Employees are just that, employees, not indentured servants. There are duties owed by employee to employer (and vice-versa) but this should not be one of them.

[foobarian]

It's complicated. If your contract says you can't do it, that means there is a legal path toward stopping you if someone bothers. That means someone has to care enough, which means that as long as you don't piss anyone off and don't get too much press you'll be fine. If you ask, it is in nobody's interest to say yes especially lawyers.

[WalterBright]

And yet I never had any trouble getting a 'yes'. One of those companies was Boeing - as big and bureaucratic as they get.

[dylan604]

I always refer to the Apple=>Woz=>HP story where Woz went to his employer 3 separate times to seek their blessing and receiving an a-okay each time that his involvement with Apple was not going to be contested by HP.

DOH!

[WalterBright]

One of the reasons why Woz is a smart cookie. Think of all the problems Apple could have had if he didn't.

[dylan604]

Woz is an absolute hero of mine, and if you're reading HN and he's not a hero of yours, then, boy, I don't know.

[zarmin]

How about, thoroughly read your employment agreement (and everything you sign).

> Just ask, in advance. If you're a valuable employee

That is a massive, massive if.

[krick]

Yeah, well, no. Realistically no one ever will fight or most likely even decline a good job offer over a typical employment contract, and no employer will ever change a typical employment contract specially for you, unless you are somehow preemptively assumed to be a very valuable employee, in which case you are most likely being hired for some very high-level (like, executive) position, so your contract isn't "typical" to start with. And this is far less likely than actually becoming a valuable employee just by doing your quite ordinary job for a few years.

You might as well recommend fighting over your gym membership contract, of a bank contract, or a telecom operator contract. Right, it's your free choice, uh-huh. Either you accept it as is, or you go fuck yourself and workout at home, without internet, looking for a job where you'll be paid in cash (which also is far from being common). Again, unless you are preemptively perceived to be a very special customer (i.e. "expected to bring in a lot of money"), in which case your contract probably isn't typical to start with. And it is most likely your lawyer who negotiates over it for you anyway.

[WalterBright]

How do you explain that I've negotiated lots of these "take it or leave it" contracts?

The only contracts you can't negotiate are government job contracts and union jobs. Which is one reason I'm not interested in either of those job categories.

> bank contract

Haha, I once negotiated a large loan from my bank at an interest a full percent below their official floor. I'm not even very good at negotiating, some people I know are much better.

> telecom contract

Have you ever said the magic words: "that sounds high, can I get this for a lower price?" The salesmen are allowed to negotiate. The initial price they quote you is the sucker price.

Every time I've been to the dealer for car work, all I have to do is balk at the quote and 10% comes right off.

This is not a special skill. Anybody can do it. Fer gosh's sake, you're expected to negotiate.

[flir]

I must have had half a dozen contracts tweaked over the course of my career. Small things, of course, like making IP rights more explicit and changing notice periods. I can assure you I'm not that valuable. Weird.

[WalterBright]

I do. Every word.

[jacquesm]

Everybody should. The number of times I would have been bitten if not for my bad habit of reading 'standard' contracts before signing them can't be counted on one hand any more.

[AndrewDavis]

Or, ensure that it is in your contract eliminating the need to ask.

For example my employment contract states (I'm paraphrasing), anything I do outside of work I own copyright on. And anything I do for work is owned by work.

[Asmod4n]

I wonder if there is more than one country in the world where it’s possible for companies to own their workers like this.

In Germany for example you can’t give away the copyright on something you wrote as a person. The only thing you can waive is the distribution part of your copyrighted works.

What you do outside your work hours is only subject to the law, not an employee.

[tuxie_]

This doesn't stop companies from putting it in their contacts to scare you though. I worked at a FAANG in Berlin and that clause was _the_ reason I almost don't sign.

[WastingMyTime89]

Unenforceable clauses are part and parcel of the typical employment contract in France. Non-compete are the one of the most common offenders. I have seen companies try to enforce hours while paying by the day - two incompatibles provision in French labour law. Most employers know they would lose if it came to the worst but they try anyway.

[strix_varius]

I would generally say, "ask for forgiveness not permission if you'll be fine walking back your decision later."

Forgiveness often makes sense at work, at least for software engineers, and for modest decisions. Do things the way you think is best instead of getting blocked for weeks looking for permission. If, later on, someone comes knocking and wanting to change it, fine, whatever.

However, taking the "forgiveness" route with more important / harder to change / expensive things - like building some addition to your house, building a software business separate your software job - is a recipe for disaster.

[hodgesrm]

It's a little more nuanced than that. Developing home nuclear reactors is an example where the approach might not benefit society at large.

Edit: Comment is off-topic but I've heard this phrase so many times it's triggering.

[megablast]

Thanks for all the examples.

[jhgb]

> the book I used to learn recommended asking permission to link to a website. I thought that was weird

You thought correctly. You should have read a book written by someone smarter. Imagine a world where you'd have to ask book writers if you're allowed to cite or to refer to their books in yours.

[hnlmorg]

It easy to say that in hindsight but it wasn’t that unusual of advice in the early days of the web (which is when the GP is describing).

The web (and internet as a whole) was a very different playground to what it is now. In fact you only have to look at how trusting early internet protocols were and all the bolted on hacks we’ve needed since to see the change (eg SMTP, FTP etc all have security as an afterthought).