[KSteffensen]

The people above you suck. That's a terrible attitude. Signalling that saving money or just generally improving systems doesn't matter will not build a culture of technical excellence and ambition.

Also, it's not peanuts. How many extra developers are $28400 per month?

[zimbu668]

> The people above you suck.

No, actually they don't. In the time I've been there they've 10x the size of the company. Maintained majority control through multiple rounds of funding. Significantly increased salaries. Provided a great work life balance. Etc.

Why are developers obsessed with how many additional developers they could hire with hypothetical savings?

[tlamponi]

no idea of $ but say they'd get 5000€ a month (quite OK for most places europe), the company would need to pay out a bit more here (for some tax/social benefit things), 7000€ would be pretty realistic, so 4 developers could be hired.

This then means that while op wouldn't immediately add 1M ARR, the original dev and the new devs could soon add 5M ARR (stupid extrapolation, it won't be as much in practice, at least normally)

[southerntofu]

Please note that in many places 5k€/month is a huge sum of money for a salary. Even in western Europe, and in France more specifically, many devs i know are payed 1-2x minimum wage (i don't know a single IT person earning 5k€/month although i'm aware they exist). In France, minimum wage is about 1500€/month (before taxes), to which you add about as much professional taxes and contributions from the employer.

According to my napkin calculus, you could get about 4.5-9 developers (for 1-2x minimum wage) onboard here in France for 28k€/month. I'm betting in other countries with low salaries and a vast talent pool, 28k€/month would get you even more employees.

[tlamponi]

I'm working currently in Vienna, and 5k is a wonderful salary for Vienna living standards, don't get me wrong, but it's also really not unheard of if you're good and/or working in a senior role.

In Austria, the "IT Kollektivvertrag" [0][1] (think contract for the whole IT collective/unions) demands a minimum of €2503 brutto (before taxes) per month for developers (those are normally falling under ST1 category), and that 14 times a year, and that's for entry level (as in, not first job but starting at a company). Note also the 14 times a year, where the last two extra salaries (Christmas pay for December and vacation pay for June) is taxed much less (note, we can get bonuses on top of that too).

[0]: https://www.wko.at/service/kollektivvertrag/kv-abschluss-inf...

Note for above PDF (only the short money table the full one can be easily found via searching "Austria IT Kollektivvertrag 2022"):

- The ST1 is for devs, and LT1 for leadership roles.

- "Einstiegsstufe" is Junior, "Regelstufe" is "normal" and "Erfahrungsstufe" is Senior

So if you get hired as senior in a leadership role you'd be entitled to €5521 Brutto salary, 14 times a year, or more depending on your experience/knowledge and your negotiation skills.

[benhurmarcel]

You need to account for the total cost to the company, not just the before-taxes salary.

In France a young developer easily costs €100k/year to employ, even if he earns a third of that before taxes.

[azmodeus]

I think you underestimate European taxes as an employer. In general it costs 2x to employ people in my experience. Taxes and social security contributions are massive

[tlamponi]

No I don't, I'm employed in Europe in a leadership role and thus talk with the CEO about salaries and general money flow, and I'm also able to read my pay slip, which is quite detailed and also lists all "Lohnnebenkosten" (side/extra costs for employer on top of my brutto money), iow. what the employer really pays.