[dougmccune]

I spent 3 years living in one of the co-ops briefly mentioned in the article ("In 2013, the administration took over the student-run anarchist house and painted over the old murals."). I wouldn't call it an "anarchist house" but it sure as hell was a lot of fun to live there. I painted some of those murals that are now apparently gone. We built a giant illegal loft in our room to make it two stories (which we would disassemble for a day every year when the fire inspection happened). We did some stupid and illegal shit, sure. But the sense of community was unparalleled. The alumni association owned the house, so we had to deal with all the maintenance. We came back to campus a week before everyone else every year to work on the house. We cooked and cleaned for ourselves. I've never since experienced anything close to that same feeling of communal pride. It was a mess, but it was our beautiful mess.

[pigscantfly]

I was in the co-ops and also a frat in the early 2010's. I knew about XOX, SAE, and KA but not theta delt or sigma chi -- let alone french house, slav, haus mitt, or casa italiana. Aside from undergrads, the school will miss out, too -- my pledge class founded thirteen companies in the few years after graduation, and I hired several friends from EBF for my own -- but the administration will probably never realize what they've done to the undergraduate culture. This is really sad news; I hope the rest of the co-ops escape -- most of the housing options are extremely uninspiring to actively anti-social and not great for mental health, as the article points out.

[majormajor]

I like how we're immediately jumping to "this is going to ruin the financial success of future graduates and thus hurt future fundraising."

"Thing I like must be directly responsible for this other thing that happened later" is sad to see from someone from what's supposed to be one of our nation's best schools.

Turning high school into middle school and college into high school, etc, in terms of adult supervision isn't my favorite thing in the world, but it's also something that been happening since long before you made it to a college campus in the early 2010s. So it's not very clear that it's going to cause corporate or economic pain. The social arguments are much more compelling, but also far harder to unwind. Parents have been both complaining about but also calling for this sort of thing for decades.

[pigscantfly]

It was a (possibly-overly-blunt) attempt to tie this cultural shift to outcomes the bureaucracy cares about, but absolutely the biggest loss is to the undergraduate culture and future students' experiences. Both future grads and the university will obviously be fine financially.

[majormajor]

My theory is that the root cause is the financialization and rat-race-ification of everything.

You gotta go to college to make a good living.

You gotta go to a TOP college especially.

You gotta work your ass off in high school to get in.

And so everyone just is told their whole childhood to compete harder and harder in this race to the bottom and there's no more room for interesting experiences since a truly interesting experience isn't guaranteed to sound as good on an application as a boring "interesting experience" run-of-the-mill extracurricular schedule.

Leaving in room for insanity and creativity is counter to what this money-above-all-else societal push for undergrad education wants.

But hey, we gotta do that because if we don't, China will!

It's not the students who benefit from having to work twice as hard to get the same degree.

[codefreeordie]

The funny/sad thing is that mostly our society doesn't actually work that way -- we just believe that it does.

You can absolutely have a highly successful career and life, for a wide variety of definitions of successful, without attending a top college, and while having "interesting" life experiences for all sorts of definitions of interesting.

There are many paths through life even in our current bureaucracy-ridden society -- it's just that we very heavily oversell one specific one to the point that we make it destructively competitive.

(There are some paths, mostly in medicine and law, which actually+/- require the Standard Elite Collegiate Life Path, but many other happy and successful outcomes do not actually)

[bradlys]

It really depends on your definition of success. If you know enough Stanford grads - you’d know that many of them will consider themselves failures in life if they haven’t founded and IPO/sold a company for $100m+. I know quite a few like this… I also know quite a few who did it and only think they’re a success in life because of said event.

[GauntletWizard]

Most people aren't successful for the reasons they imagine, but more importantly - most people aren't unsuccessful for the reasons they imagine. The increasingly democratic views of what is and isn't successful are our society's greatest I'll, as much as I do hope people keep supporting the things they love and wish to be.

[ClumsyPilot]

> there's no more room for interesting experiences

So people will become infantile and inexperienced. Between this and atomisation of society, the bill will come due. Aociao connections have massive value, beurocrats just dont know how to measure ir

[lotsofpulp]

Is it possible this is a consequence of proportionally fewer economic opportunities (i.e. increasing income/wealth gap)? Maybe the combination of low hanging fruit having been picked, and automation and technology allowing for massive economies of scale inevitably lead to a “big getting bigger” scenario. And because the lower hanging fruit has been picked, the risk and hence barrier to entry is very high for non conventional routes.

[majormajor]

I think there's a really interesting question in there of "is it a cause, or an effect," that I honestly don't have a strong opinion on currently.

I would lean towards cause instead of effect, though.

So where you say, "low hanging fruit has been picked resulting in high barrier to entry," I say, "this zero-sum-game of maximizing academic profiles starting in preschool has resulted in higher barriers to entry because the less well-off you are, the harder it is to both know what to maximize and have the time to do it."

I see it as a "everyone's defecting in a prisoner's dilemma resulting in everyone having a worse time" game theory problem.

If you try to be "merit" based but don't have reliable ways of separating "merit" from "grinding" then you're gonna end up with a lot of grinders as people figure it out.

[astrange]

Most people in the US don't go to college. If you believe the theory that jobs get less valued by society when women join them, this is going to happen here as well, since college is increasingly something women do more than men.

[philwelch]

> If you believe the theory that jobs get less valued by society when women join them, this is going to happen here as well, since college is increasingly something women do more than men.

I don't believe that theory, but I do believe a theory that has similar results: adding more workers to a field increases the supply of workers and thus reduces the market value of their work, and the main way that new workers have been added to existing fields in the past 100 years is to encourage women to join those fields.

Edit: Actually there are two theories that explain this pattern. The other theory is basically that feminism encourages young women and girls to pursue glamorous, high-status careers, but if you're choosing a career based on how glamorous it is, and it takes a long time to get into it, by the time you're there, the glamor has moved on. This also explains why low-status male-dominant careers can remain male-dominant for just as long as they remain low-status--these fields are consistently even lower status than fields that are predominantly female.

[pvarangot]

Yeah degree inflation is really hard on you if for whatever reason you buy into that. The Meritocracy Trap is a good read if you want to witness the existential horror of someone that realizes it's a thing when they come out on the other side.

[majormajor]

I don't know where you're going with "if for whatever reason you buy into that" or whatever.

But it's just mathematics. Normalization, basically. If there are X high school seniors in the country, and Y incoming seats in Stanford's next class, you can't take everyone. So if everyone works harder on their profile it's the same as if nobody does.

I don't think it's in question that this has happened. I would also go a bit further and say that I believe that assembly-lining more "directed" academic effort into every bit of students' time is going to be counter-productive for innovation and creativity, since those are by nature more spontaneous.

[astrange]

The word "meritocracy" itself was invented for a book about how it's a bad idea that can't work, so it's a surprise to see anyone legitimately trying to do it. See: Goodhart's Law.

[quantified]

I put it up to the helicopter-parenting mentality on the part of administrators. Make things safe and predictable, treat 18-22 year olds like either children or 50-year olds

[xbar]

Perhaps Stanford was culturally co-opted.

[dave_sullivan]

I think his point was more along the lines of "While you are at an elite school you should socialize and build your social network. That social network will become your starting professional network after school. Less opportunity for socialization will reduce the potential size of this network."

Seems reasonable to me.

[watwut]

> Communal living houses (“co-ops”) encouraged casual nudity, while fraternities threw a raucous annual “Greek Week”

If the access to professional social network requires participation in the above, then I see why people see issue with that. In an ideal world, your professional future would not be dependent on your willingness to walk around naked or your enjoyment of raucous party. (Neither should damage your future, but should not be the key to access either.)

And in particular, I find it completely inconsistent with idea of meritocracy.

[FunnyBadger]

I agree.

If you are extroverted, you DO NOT need a curated or arbitrary system to social network - you are simply going to do it anyway.

If you are introverted, you WILL NEVER take advantage of even a curated system to "create" a social network - it's simply not in you to do that.

So that leaves a tiny domain of people for whom it might help. But the reality is that it's the peak of the Bell curve but it's also the peak of mediocrity which is antithetical to startups or creativity. Yet unexpected and creative connections are supposed to be the point.

Cheaper to buy a golf club membership quite honestly.

[MomoXenosaga]

Yeah I never joined one of those bro clubs at university. The hazing humiliation is not my thing. There are 3 people who get to yell at me for no reason and one of them is a cat.

I have to admit that university was a bit of a let down. Supposedly the best young elites society had to offer? Oh boy.

[watwut]

Yeah, hazing is another thing. It sounds like professional social network biased toward people with weak personal boundaries. Also biased AGAINST people who show independent thinking and ability to not go with crowd. People able to resist peer social pressure are more likely to say no to hazing.

[dr_dshiv]

I think being “fun to hang out with” is part of what makes a person have merit.

[watwut]

This "merious" definition of "fun to hang out with" is exactly the problem. It selects normal and non jerks who are plenty of pleasant and fun to hang around with, but avoid puking after parties and nudity.

[Dan_Sylveste]

Meritocracy isn't real. It's a nice ideal but it isn't real.

[claytongulick]

Can you describe what you mean by that in more detail?

Are you claiming that each individual's capabilities are the same as everyone else's?

[watwut]

Isn't that pretty much definition of nepotism? Those jobs would go to someone, they wont disappear out of economy. However, they should go to "the best person for the company" rather then the school friend. I can understand giving jobs and promotions to friends, it is tempting. I am surprise over it being treated as a "something to strive for".

[FunnyBadger]

At this point they are trying to "program" in Woke. That's why they are shutting this stuff down.

[sanj]

This was wonderful to read.

I lived in a similar beautiful mess, but it still exists!

https://pika.mit.edu/

[ztaira]

I lived there too! What a wonderful mess it was lol

One of my friends from high school was in Stanford's LSJUMB and while visiting him I got to briefly visit a couple of the Stanford co-ops. What struck me most was how similar the co-ops were despite being on literal opposite sides of the country. If there had been a magic wormhole-esque[0][1] portal that _actually_ linked the houses together, I would've only been mildly surprised

Long live pika! Long live shenanigans!

[0] http://archive.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2011/...

[1] https://engineering.stanford.edu/news/wormhole-connects-stan...

[musicale]

I believe there used to be a "wormhole" static video conference linking cafés at MIT and Stanford. You could sit down at a table at MIT and talk with people at Stanford or vice-versa.

It's a great idea that should be deployed not just at universities but other places as well.

[whymauri]

my favorite pika stories are about Pi Kappa Alpha brothers from the South showing up and being extremely confused about the naked people

[sanj]

My favorite story is about the attempt to recreate cold fusion, resulting in a Nova special referring to it as “a secret physics society”.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7GPA_JZxT5w

[theicfire]

First time I've seen this show up on HN. I lived there too :). I still live in a co-op to this day.. actually one a few blocks away from Stanford.

[every]

My wife and I met over 4 decades ago here [1]. She was the food buyer and I a weekly dinner chef...

[1] https://collegehouses.org/listings/21st/

[verall]

Collegehouses is still going strong, 21st went through some renovations a couple years ago :)

Something different from what is mentioned in the article is that the Austin co-ops are not owned by alumni orgs and are not officially affiliated with any school or university.

[hyperbovine]

Meanwhile, the coop system at Berkeley is alive and well.

[yojo]

God bless the USCA (or BSC, or whatever they call it now).

It breaks my heart that other students don’t have that opportunity for community. It’s not for everyone, but by far the most interesting years of my life were living in the Berkeley coops 2002-2005.

[PopAlongKid]

But you were still too late for the infamous Barrington Hall[0]. When I first arrived in Berkeley in the early 1980s, a hitchhiker from Europe who had traveled across the country with me somehow immediately found Barrington as a place where he could crash for a week while he visited the area, this was pre-internet times of course.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrington_Hall_(Berkeley,_Cal...

[scarmig]

One of the stated reasons one of the houses in the article was eliminated was because it let a nonstudent crash there, and my own house constantly had issues with the administration over the same thing.

[musicale]

Stanford may have the Axe, but Cal still has student-run housing.

[tharko]

Cal has the axe

[musicale]

Yep, 2021 was the worst Big Game loss for Stanford since 2004.

No Stanford Axe, no student-run housing, and apparently no fun on the Farm. Sad.

[selectodude]

Same with UCLA. Those places were a total whirlwind.

[ChadNauseam]

Hey, I lived in a very similar system at Michigan State University. It was a ton of fun and I made some of my best friends in that house. Really sad to hear that Stanford painted over the murals.

[RcouF1uZ4gsC]

> We built a giant illegal loft in our room to make it two stories (which we would disassemble for a day every year when the fire inspection happened). We did some stupid and illegal shit, sure. But the sense of community was unparalleled.

Sounds like toxic “bro” culture.

First of all, fire safety regulations are one of those things that are written in blood so speak. Casually bypassing them is not something to be celebrated.

Second, is it any surprise that people who come out of this environment then end up creating startups which skirt regulations, sell out their users privacy, and do “stupid and illegal shit”.