[21723]

I'd argue that, while it may not be selfish to have kids, most people who are having kids do it for selfish reasons. They don't want to "die alone". They want to show that they can afford it. They want to vicariously get into Harvard and work in publishing (if traditional publishing still exists in the 2040s at all) and live some imagined high life... even though the probabilities are minuscule and most children are going to inherit a world even shittier than the one we were stuck with.

I don't think I'll have kids. It's the one vote I've got. Why would I stake anything I care about on a society that will almost certainly fail them?

[kettleballroll]

Whoa, that's a lot of super weird assumptions you're making. Fwiw, neither myself nor any other parent i ever met even gets in the remote vicinity of the picture you're painting. It sounds to me like you just have shitty parent-friends in your bubble? But rest assured that there a legion of other parents out there who neither got kids because they're afraid to die alone nor want to force their own wishes and life goals onto them.

In my experience, kids can be exhausting at times, and take a lot of dedication and time that you could otherwise spend on selfish persuits, so having kids for selfish reasons sounds insanely misguided to me. It's rather that despite all those sacrifices, kids enrich your life, and they allow tremendous opportunity for self-growth and a host of experiences that are hard to replicate otherwise.

[enrichyourlife]

> It's rather that despite all those sacrifices, kids enrich your life, and they allow tremendous opportunity for self-growth and a host of experiences that are hard to replicate otherwise.

This is the reason why most people have kids. This doesn't entirely contradicts the parent post though: People are having kids for their self benefits.

[Goronmon]

That post said the main reasons that people have kids are "They don't want to "die alone". They want to show that they can afford it."

Which are entirely different reasons than the parent poster gave.

This whole meta discussion of whether it's done for "selfish" reasons is largely not valuable, as every decision one makes in their life can be framed as being entirely selfish.

[goodpoint]

> kids enrich your life, and they allow tremendous opportunity for self-growth and a host of experiences that are hard to replicate otherwise

As other people said, these are by-the-book examples of selfish justifications. (And no, I'm not saying that ALL parenting is selfish)

And this is without considering climate change. If you consider it, having kids is very selfish.

[pcthrowaway]

There's also an argument that it's unethical to intentionally bring someone into the world when there are so many problems and a fair chance that their life may involve a lot of suffering

[Goronmon]

Some arguments are worth making, some aren't.

There is also an argument that people choose not to have kids because they are too lazy and self-involved to care for another person.

[pcthrowaway]

That's not really the same kind of argument. Of course some people are too lazy and self-involved to care for other people. Lots of those people have kids and abandon them too.

Anyway, if someone does have the capacity to care for others, and wants the experience of raising children, adoption is an option as well, and doesn't require one to create more humans

[hugg]

I mean most people (like you) seem to justify having kids in a selfish way (self-growth, experiences).

As someone who doesn't want my own kids (but like kids and spend time with them), I feel no need to have my own

[Goronmon]

I mean most people (like you) seem to justify having kids in a selfish way (self-growth, experiences).

What is an example of a non-selfish reason someone would have kids?

[hugg]

Can't really think of any. But not saying being selfish is wrong either. There is a lot of things we do that are selfish.

[mattgreenrocks]

I suggest avoiding the temptation to judge the motives and choices of other people when they don't affect you. I did the same for a good chunk of time. I was an excellent Internet commenter, and had it all figured out. Then I got older, and sometimes found myself understanding why those choices were made, and occasionally even making those same choices I'd despised.

Doing so was a deeply bitter pill to swallow, both in terms of the choices available and the sunk cost of previous opinions.

Working on yourself is a lifetime of effort. I suggest you focus more on that and less on casting aspersions on large groups of people for whom you know little about.

[logical_ferry]

There is nothing less selfish than havint kids. The amount of sacrifice you have to put in is huge. If you are not on board with that, don't have kids.

[yodsanklai]

You're doing it for a return though: the joy of having kids, planning for the future and so on... I'm sure it's hard work, but it's certainly not an altruistic act.

[logical_ferry]

I am not planning on getting anything back from these kids except the joy of seeing them grow up into healthy independent individuals.

[adhesive_wombat]

Even if sacrifice and selflessness were always the same, if one would treat having your own kids differently to adopting a newborn, all other things equal, then at least part of your desire to have kids is some kind of "selfish" motivation, rather than a purely altruistic endeavour to bring up a child or contribute to the workforce of tomorrow (or whatever the ostensible motivation is).

If one actually only cared about performing a service for the child and/or future society why do the exact genes matter?

Unless one actually thinks ones own genes are so superior that they're a service in their own right, in which case, one should be having as many children as possible.

Conversely, if one thinks that by having a child is some kind of cost, either to the child or society (or anything other than oneself), it can be a selfless choice to not have the child, even if you personally wanted one.

[logical_ferry]

You are intellectualizing too much.

[adhesive_wombat]

I believe that is actually called "thinking", though it can be a shock to some, so take care when starting out.

[goodpoint]

That does not make it less selfish.

Imagine putting the same sacrifice in donating money or otherwise contributing to a charity that does important work.

And you only get a "thank you" letter. Does it feel the same?

If you are as selfless as you said it should not make a difference.

[logical_ferry]

I don't know, I have never put in the same sacrifice/money to charity.

[goodpoint]

...hence the keyword "imagine".

Plus, you make strong claims like "nothing less selfish" and yet you have never made sacrifices for anything other than kids... maybe there's something to think about.

[logical_ferry]

Imagine, making sacrifices for your kids and not for the Amazon forest.

[oldandboring]

If you do end up having kids, I hope you come back here and re-read what you wrote, just for lolz. Privileged young people without kids have this whole philosophy that just all adds up on paper. Reminds me of listening to libertarians and communists.

Source: I have kids.

[logical_ferry]

I love people like that. They have a whole philosophy constructed around this and that. I laugh at the amount of thought that went into the reasoning why they would rather not have kids. When they start dishing out these little nuggets of wisdom I just think to myself "it's better you stay childless". Imagine the little wise-ass this guy would raise. Poor child.