[jamal-kumar]

You know how dumb I find this situation?

I fucking left and haven't had a cell phone plan in Canada for like a decade. My bill on TWO FOREIGN PHONES even roaming WITHIN CANADA is cheaper than maintaining a stupid Bell Rogers or Telus plan internationally.

The major sense I get from Canadians whenever I arrive back is an enormous sense of financial illiteracy. Like they just don't know or care about how badly they get ripped off all the time on so many things and will never care enough to do anything meaningful about it.

[cmrdporcupine]

The problem in the end comes down to the fine line Canada always straddles due to the proverbial "sleeping with the elephant" (see quote from Trudeau Sr.)

The fear being that if Canada deregulates fully and opens critical sectors like telecomms etc. to full competition we will completely lose these industries to US (or Chinese, etc.) interests.

And yet at the same time domestic regulation is continually captured by predatorial internal interests.

Canada has always been this way, and it's frustrating as hell. Almost every industry has a caste of "goold old boys" who seek to prevent competition by capturing regulatory agencies.

Many times many participants all went to private school together @ Upper Canada College, etc. Or sit/sat on boards together.

You could say "ok, disband the regulation and let them compete" but many times that just leads to the total collapse of certain domestic industries because they simply can't compete with US capital.

[ttul]

> The fear being that if Canada deregulates fully and opens critical sectors like telecomms etc. to full competition we will completely lose these industries to US (or Chinese, etc.) interests.

I have never understood the reluctance of successive governments to allow foreign competition in our telecom markets. Telus, Shaw, Bell, and Rogers are all widely held public companies. They answer to global shareholders.

Yet, I can accept the argument writ large that some degree of sovereign relatedness for significant industries is sensible in a world where many foreign companies receive illicit government support for strategic reasons.

The best solution to bring down prices while protecting corporate sovereignty is a state-owned provincial provider. Mobile prices in Saskatchewan are significantly lower because of SaskTel. At times, yes, even a boring state-owned telecom is a good thing. Rogers/Telus/etc resist this notion, yet prices are evidentially a great deal cheaper in that province.

IMHO, the feds should create a fund to help provinces and municipalities build their own public broadband and mobile infrastructure, with the stated aim of competing with big-telecom.

[amscanne]

I suspect that for every well-run public corporation, there are a dozen that are bloated and wasteful, and should have died long ago. SaskTel seems like one of the good ones, but it’s not that way because it’s a public corporation.

This doesn’t happen because people involved are less competent, it’s just that if they make some bad decisions or have some bad luck, they won’t be forced to answer to reality by the market by e.g. running out of money or being beaten by competition. Public corporations are too easy to keep going by continuing to fund through state coffers; to shut them down suggests that leaders made a mistake, so instead we throw good money after bad. It may not have been a mistake to attempt a public option, however even good ideas can fail for lots of reasons, and incentives just make it too hard to fail when it should.

To me the LCBO is the shining example of this: any reasonable analysis that compares with private competition for alcohol sales (e.g. Alberta, BC) would find Ontario has much worse store coverage, worse selection and lower net revenue per unit of alcohol .. yet, no politician would dare visit such an idea, since it suggests government (and its leaders) and ineffective.

The best thing would be to do a Yozma-style funding program. The government offers to match investment and provides clear buy-out terms for successful cases. If you lower the downside risk, you’ll get the competition you want in the space.

[cmrdporcupine]

I'm not a fan of the LCBO's regulatory or wholesaling/importing arms, but.

I grew up in Alberta. Privatization of liquor there happened just around when I turned 18. LCBO vs the typical Alberta "liquor barn" type operation is no contest: the LCBO wins. On selection, on service, on presentation.

There are just a handful of decent wine shops in Edmonton when I visit. Their selection is meh. Almost every decent sized LCBO has a "Vintages" selection with a decently currated selection of wines. They are actually the superior retail experience, and they treat their employees far better on the whole.

The LCBO is also the single biggest importer of liquor in North America last I looked. Many European producers actually produce special labels and product just for the LCBO, because it buys in quantity for all of Ontario.

Politicians don't dare visit privatizing it not because of the suggestion it might make them look ineffective but because the LCBO brings in an obscene amount of revenue.

(The wine industry in Ontario is actually something I know a lot about. The real problem here is the regulatory side of things, and also the regulatory capture that what I call the "Niagara VQA Mafia" has over the domestic wine market. Becoming a wine producer in this province is stupid, it's been locked down to the same handful of meh grapes in an essentially locked in set of growing regions with no room for innovation, and the gov't totally destroys you on excise taxes, etc. not to mention the cut the LCBO takes from you)

[amscanne]

You’re missing the point.

Alberta has many kinds of liquor stores that optimize for different things, such as price, convenience or selection, all based on market demand. Last time I checked, they had far more SKUs overall (distribution is still centralized by the government for taxation and regulation).

Your experience at the LCBO might be great, but this is coming from less efficient operation. Would the private market support a “Vintages” section in every store and unionized cashiers at $30/hr? Probably not. Why should Ontario taxpayers be effectively subsidizing the alcohol retail experience in Ontario? It’s a ridiculous proposition.

The LCBO brings in a lot of revenue, but with a monopoly on most alcohol sales this is inevitable. Every privatization study (including the Liberals’ own study which they ignored) says that privatization would have no impact on revenues, which improving almost everything for the consumer (more convenience, more selection albeit via specialized stores, etc.)

[jamal-kumar]

Don't they sell weed now too? How's that working out?

[cmrdporcupine]

No, they don't.

[908B64B197]

> I have never understood the reluctance of successive governments to allow foreign competition in our telecom markets. Telus, Shaw, Bell, and Rogers are all widely held public companies. They answer to global shareholders.

Especially since it's a huge opportunity for profits for Canadian companies.

In Europe telecoms became an open market where any European carrier could setup shop anywhere else in Europe. The result was that the more efficient operators managed to grow considerably. Just take a look at the French Orange Telecom [0]

Opening the Canadian market to the USA or Europe would mean that Canadian companies could setup shops and disrupt the market in foreign countries. There's no reasons they would get crushed by their foreign competitors in an open market.

I mean, I remember the times when everyone had a BlackBerry phone and when Nortel was still a thing. These two companies were very much Canadians and killing it abroad.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A.#Operations

[jamal-kumar]

Also consider T-Mobile is Deutsche Telekom in the USA

[FredPret]

We should do two things:

1. Pick a couple of industries and specialize in them 2. Deregulate everything

This way, we can compete as a small country without getting screwed as consumers across the board.

I think Sweden followed this model with cars and something else.

[jamal-kumar]

This is a correct point of view. It's just plain old localized oligarchy.

[voisin]

> You could say "ok, disband the regulation and let them compete" but many times that just leads to the total collapse of certain domestic industries because they simply can't compete with US capital.

What’s wrong with this if it leads to lower costs for consumers and better service?

[xav0989]

Canada wants to maintain a domestic industry, in part to not be held to the whims of another country's governing body. When the people that control your information flow, your food production, etc. are not within your jurisdiction, you're effectively at the mercy of both them and the government of their country.

[michael1999]

The only thing Canadian about Rogers is the dividends. None of the technologies they operate are Canadian.

[voisin]

> in part to not be held to the whims of another country's governing body.

Just because the industry is foreign doesn’t mean it isn’t subject to local regulation and oversight.

[loudthing]

... and largely, when American companies set up shop in Canada, they create a wholly owned subsidiary that is a Canadian company. I.e. McDonald's Canada and General Motors Canada are separate entities from their parent organizations.

Fun fact posted here before: The McDonald's locations that were recently shuttered in Russia were specifically founded by McDonald's Canada.

[bregma]

There is more to domestic policy than being able to go to the foreign-owned big-box store in your foreign-made sweats to buy foreign-made underwear that is 5 cents cheaper. Especially if that savings is only used to pay for the higher cost of internet infrastructure owned by a handful of oligarchs and used to distribute foreign-made content consumed in your sweats while quaffing beer made by foreign-owned cartels and eating popcorn grown by foreign-subsidized farmers.

[marcosdumay]

Local industry can't compete because the costs are too high, so the government acts by protecting the local industry and increasing costs everywhere.

Welcome to the protectionism vicious cycle.

[52-6F-62]

It's not so great for people who don't see themselves only as consumers of a service. It's not a simple linear change.

[cpsns]

> The major sense I get from Canadians whenever I arrive back is an enormous sense of financial illiteracy. Like they just don't know or care about how badly they get ripped off all the time on so many things and will never care enough to do anything meaningful about it.

In reality there is nothing meaningful Canadians can do to fix this, that isn't how things work in Canada. MPs and MLAs don't listen and no party that could actually win will take the required steps to solve this problem. It's extremely difficult not to be apathetic when you know the fight isn't winnable.

People know they're getting ripped off, that's why anyone who can goes to America to buy essential goods.

[dorfsmay]

The concept of polical parties and MPs/MLAs voting whatever their parties is telling them makes no sense. Polarisation is making this issue worse.

It's 2022, we have technology that can make direct democracy cheap, easy and secure. Some countries are doing it the old fashion way, and it works.

In the meantime, proper representation is a good intermediate step:

https://www.fairvote.ca/

[TheOtherHobbes]

Policy is defined by whoever writes the laws and decides their content, not so much by who votes on them.

PR is definitely an improvement on FPTP, which is hugely biased towards the Establishment.

But it's still very vulnerable to well-funded PR and influencing campaigns.

Real democracy is difficult and precarious. Solutions have to be systemic covering not just politics but also law, the civil service, education at all levels, the media, the military and police, and ownership of key public assets.

[dorfsmay]

Don't you think laws will be written and advertised differently if every citizen has a chance to vote on them vs being slam dunk by the party in power?

There will still be well funded PR in a direct vote system, but it will hopefully be easier to expose and see the value of each law.

Sure the executive side of things can and should be improved, but it'll be harder, and I'd argue a different initiative.

[car_analogy]

> It's 2022, we have technology that can make direct democracy cheap, easy and secure

Are you from a parallel universe where operating systems, compilers, and software and hardware supply chains are secure against nation-state adversaries?

Obligatory https://cs.cmu.edu/~rdriley/487/papers/Thompson_1984_Reflect...

[car_analogy]

> no party that could actually win will take the required steps to solve this problem.

Trudeau did campaign on electoral reform, and then went back on his word: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ask-electoral-reform-2021-f...

[jamal-kumar]

I mean you can do what I did and leave. A lot of intelligent people have already. Hello, doctor shortage?

It's a nice passport.

[cpsns]

Leaving the country is not trivial for most people. I see this comment a lot from people who have left, but for lack of a better term it's an extremely "privileged" position.

If you're either not in a high demand industry, not highly skilled, or lack a degree you aren't going to be leaving Canada. Even if you are all of those things it can still be difficult.

I'd leave in an instant but despite being highly skilled I lack a university degree which in my experience has made it almost impossible, despite trying.

[sandworm101]

Or have family/dependents that mean you cannot just up and leave your home country.

[BlargMcLarg]

This, along with the increasing awareness regarding consumption and emissions, is way bigger than most people make it out to be. Even without dependents, it seems easy until you realize if anything happens to your immediate family, it becomes a lot more difficult to see them (and vice versa).

It's a tradeoff between freedom and community, but it's still a tradeoff most people aren't fully aware off.

[kenned3]

"highly skilled I lack a university degree which in my experience has made it almost impossible, despite trying."

I'm in the same boat, highly skilled and lack a university degree. I left for ~8 years and came back.

The TN visa program has many qualifying jobs that dont require uni degrees.

It was VERY easy.. apply for US job, take US Job offer to the boarder, pay like $35 and get a TN stamp in my passport. Use this to get a Social security number, bank account, etc.

I'm STRONGLY advising all my kids leave. The taxes and how you are treated in Canada is shitty.

Try finding a Doctor here, or sign up for any programs. 6 month wait lists, overbooked, overcrowding... This country LOVES to make promises to get your votes, takes your tax dollars to pay for it, but fails to deliver when you need the services you paid for?

Get a decent job, they will provide good coverage and you can see a doctor next-day.

[underdeserver]

Surely relocating your life is such a big move that you can plan for it ahead of time and get a degree? It doesn't have to be from a good, expensive university, as long as it's recognized.

And I think for software engineers with experience getting a degree in CS while not trivial is doable, especially if you're not hoping for high grades.

[Tronno]

Wait, are you saying it's reasonable to radically restructure the next few years of one's life just to protest internet prices?

[jamal-kumar]

I don't have a uni degree either, kinda sounds like a you problem for lack of a better term

A plane ticket out of Canada has never costed me more than half of average monthly rent in BC

[cpsns]

How is the cost of a plane ticket relevant at all? I can afford to fly around the world tomorrow if I want, that doesn't matter.

> I don't have a uni degree either, kinda sounds like a you problem for lack of a better term

I'm not going to partake in this dude. You don't have to be nasty because I suggested you might be privileged in some way.

Not everyone gets the same opportunities and not everyone has the same life circumstances.

[kenned3]

"You don't have to be nasty because I suggested you might be privileged in some way."

it is always external factors isn't it? He's privileged, I went to the US for years because i am privileged.. Everyone else who has done this is privileged?

This is sort of the "everyone thinks they are above average which is impossible" problem.. Not everyone can be "privileged".. maybe that isnt the issue after all?

what have YOU done to make YOURSELF admissible? No one will do this for you... there isn't any form of "Affirmative action" program to enter a foreign country.

They admit based on your skills and abilities and their needs to fill those roles. Look at the requirements, find out what you are missing..

[jamal-kumar]

In which case I wish you all the best of luck that your outlook improves.

[verve_rat]

It's not the ticket out. It is the right to work in another country. Generally that requires some skills that are in short supply. That doesn't necessarily mean having a degree, but that doesn't hurt when trying to get a work visa.

[BlargMcLarg]

So out of curiosity and someone who isn't Canadian, what exactly is keeping individuals?

Most countries I see, the problem is one of the two. Non-English industry and one doesn't speak the native language. Missing a desirable education + experience combo (e.g. any masters or PhD, STEM bachelor, software dev with 3+ YoE).

I'd imagine most individuals looking here would hit one of the requirements on the last, and English tends to be the language spoken in software dev in most of the world (or at least, the ability to). Several may be willing to accommodate non-native language speakers on several other fields, too.

At the very least, I know much of Europe is bending over backwards for skilled workers (backlash from trying to cheapen everything and from the US taking EU's skilled workers, I guess) and the US is Canada's neighbor.

[fnordpiglet]

A plane ticket doesn’t come with a work permit.

[jszymborski]

Canada has problems, and it's good to talk about them lest we never be rid of them.

Suggesting "just leave" is a pretty facile argument if I'm being abundantly generous.

Fleeing a country whenever you take issue with industry cronyism is an excellent way to move to a new country every 3 weeks. It's also a great way to make sure whatever policies you disagree with flourish in your absence.

Changing country comes at a huge financial and emotional cost not everyone can afford.

What country did you move to that magically doesn't have any problems?

[Kranar]

Canada has the same doctors per capita as the U.S., it's just that in Canada access to health care is considered a defacto universal right whereas in the U.S. for much of the population health care is a privilege or benefit associated with employment.

[ckdarby]

You left over internet and mobile bills? Damn.

[jamal-kumar]

I ran a VoIP company before leaving because of spook interference. Long story I won't tell here.

[perlpimp]

on concurrent note can't get out of country car insurance which is 200-300$/month for a junker car just collision liability bare basics. it is a bit of a crisis way established institutions fleece us Canadians.

[frosted-flakes]

Where do you live? I'm in a medium-sized city near Toronto and pay around $60. Mid-20s, male, basic liability on a 19-year-old VW.

[perlpimp]

Toronto downtown, thats the quotes I got for toyta Camry 18 years old.

[ejb999]

didn't realize there was a doctor shortage in Canada - all I ever hear about countries with socialized medicine is how they are better than the US at delivering health care more cheaply - possibly true in some respects, but if there is no doctor to see you, than it really doesn't matter.

US system is far from perfect, but at least I can always find a doctor when I need one.

[rfrey]

There's a shortage of primary care, family doctors in Canada, but that's a systemic issue resulting from a skewed payment system that undervalues family medicine. The result is some difficulty getting a family doctor after you leave home as many practices are fully booked with patients and there aren't as many young physicians entering family medicine as we need.

The outcome is having to go to a walk-in clinic or (worst case) the ER room if you need care and don't have a doctor. That's inconvenient because of having to sit in the waiting room for a few hours.

In Alberta there is a genuine issue with doctors leaving the province (mostly for other provinces, not the country entirely), but that is the direct result of the conservative government there waging war on the public medical system in an effort to build support for a private system.

The only place I hear about the terrible medical care situation in Canada is in the American far-right press and some of their Canadian surrogates (e.g. Rebel News in Alberta).

[sandworm101]

Is there a country on the planet without a doctor/nurse shortage? I've never heard anyone anywhere say that their had too much healthcare available. No healthcare system is perfect but Canadians are not dropping dead in the streets for lack of doctors. There are localized issues, mostly due to the distances involved in Canada, but the population as a whole is doing better than most.

Just look at the COVID numbers. For all its problems, Canada's healthcare system is handling COVID far better than the US.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60380317

[jamal-kumar]

I ask Canada for a specialist and I'm on a waiting list for half a year and then my appointment gets cancelled.

I fly to Latin America and go to a doctor throw down less than 100$ and my health is immediately better. Total investment stays under 1000$.

[sandworm101]

Yes. In Latin America rich people can almost always purchase better/faster healthcare. Lots of things are cheaper in other countries. Rich people in the US can buy instant healthcare too. Your cash just wont go as far in the US.

[mistrial9]

US has their own versions of this.. basically all General Practitioner aka Family Doctor offices closed here twenty years ago.. rural areas have not one local doctor in many places of the USA - keyword search "medically underserved"

[TMWNN]

>didn't realize there was a doctor shortage in Canada

It is impossible for someone who moves to Halifax, for example, to get a new primary care doctor (<https://globalnews.ca/news/2668767/halifax-area-doctor-says-...>, <https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/john-ross-healthc...>).

[corrral]

> US system is far from perfect, but at least I can always find a doctor when I need one.

You can easily find this, and basically every other problem and horror story from countries with universal care, in the US. Long wait times, trouble finding doctors who are taking new patients, trouble getting appointments with specialists. All that stuff. It varies by location and by which healthcare "networks" you have access to.

And on top of that we get the how-the-fuck-is-this-still-a-thing nightmare of US healthcare billing.

[jamal-kumar]

It's awful if you have a chronic health condition or need specialists but when you get hit by a car and don't have to pay a huge hospital bill it is pretty cool.

Still it's hemorrhaging talent because of dumb pay schemes that could probably be fixed overnight if it wasn't for the aforementioned financial illiteracy

[Mikeb85]

In Canada you get what you pay for... Healthcare is free but it's also pretty shit. Care in Europe is far better, care in the US is far better if you have money.

[kenned3]

F-me.. responded to teh wrong thread...

[karaterobot]

Just a note that the person you quoted is not the person you responded to.

[kenned3]

Opps.. thanks.. i've fixed it..

[fxleach]

> The major sense I get from Canadians whenever I arrive back is an enormous sense of financial illiteracy.

Completely false. Ask any Canadian how they feel about their internet or mobile phone bill and they will tell you they're being ripped off. We have been battling Rogers and Bell for decades, they have too much money and influence at this point.

[jamal-kumar]

You know what I will have to contend the critical comments on this one are spot on. CBC marketplace is a good indicator.

You can still literally just go to the USA and get a sim chip that costs less to use in Canada than it does to do the opposite. Hmm.

[fxleach]

I see a lot of your replies are to basically leave the country. Got a chip on your shoulder bud?

[jamal-kumar]

I mean my phone bill isn't 200$ and massively data capped with bad coverage anymore so if it's to get a better deal on your phone bill then that's my advice yes

[hhw]

I think financially literate people in Canada don't pay anywhere near $200. I've always paid around $50/mo for the last 20 years, without ever going out of my way to shop for promotions, and have been able to have all the data usage I could reasonably use (previously excluded watching videos when not on Wi-Fi, but the most recent plan of a few years has enough data that I no longer need to), plus extra bells and whistles like free roaming in the US. This is with both a corporate plan with Bell the last 6-7 years, and a regular single individual plan with Rogers all the years before that, so wasn't even with a lower cost provider.

There are huge promotions multiple times a year because the competition is fierce between the top providers. When long-term contracts that subsidized phones were still around up to a few years ago, the buyouts to switch providers were so aggressive that you could end up with an extra few hundred dollars in your pocket on top of a new phone every 2 years when switching providers, or staying with the same provider and getting the loyalty/retention department to match offers. Yes, there may be better deals to be found down south sometimes, but not by enough of a margin to deal with cross-border banking, currency conversion, and much worse consumer protection laws for most people.

Yes, additional competition might potentially help drive prices down, but the low ROI on the huge amount of infrastructure required for such a small population might also result in worse economies of scale for all players resulting in the need to cut corners on coverage or service quality to remain competitive.

Also, I'm not convinced coverage is better down south. Anecdotally, I seem to hit way more deadspots driving down I5 through Washington and Oregon than I do on Highway 1 across BC to Alberta despite having much larger swathes of populated areas. I'm also shocked everytime I go to New York and get zero cell signal in every subway station including near Wall Street, when every underground transit station in Vancouver has coverage (admittedly Toronto does not have this though).

[jamal-kumar]

I have one question, have the prices gone up or down over the past decade? I will admit I'm not familiar with the market there for about as long for sure.

Last time I had a bill in my name in Canada it was pretty pricey to get any reasonable amount of international (Not just USA) roaming plans with reasonable amounts of data, like around 200 for sure.

[kenned3]

I'm not sure you intended to come across as condescending but it does read this way.

"The major sense I get from Canadians whenever I arrive back is an enormous sense of financial illiteracy. Like they just don't know or care about how badly they get ripped off all the time on so many things and will never care enough to do anything meaningful about it."

First, that isn't what financial illiteracy means.

Next, It is very easy to write things like this but what are your proposals? you seem to feel they are being "ripped off", speak down upon them for not doing anything, but fail to offer any solutions.. very helpful?

Are they really being ripped off?

I lived in the US for ~8 years and used T-Mobile. i dont find the T-Moble price to be too far off my freedom monthly rates.

we LOVE to complain about the prices differences, but never actually show what they really are.

it is hard to provide coverage in a massive country with low population. California has more people vs Canada.

[TMWNN]

>I lived in the US for ~8 years and used T-Mobile. i dont find the T-Moble price to be too far off my freedom monthly rates.

I pay Sprint (now T-Mobile) $20 total for two unlimited lines. Yes, that includes all taxes and fees.

Admittedly, I got a fantastic deal (only available for two weeks) for one of the two lines, got the other line as a free promotion also only briefly available, and then got the taxes/fees incorporated into the total when the account moved over to T-Mobile. But if I didn't have those deals, I'd pay $25 (after a group discount that's trivial to get) to Visible for an unlimited line on the Verizon network, or Mint Mobile's[1] $30/month for unlimited plan, or $20/month for 10GB plan (which might as well be unlimited for me, and probably 95% of others). My understanding is that nothing in Canada comes close to these rates.

[1] Canadian Ryan Reynolds as spokesman and part owner

[jamal-kumar]

You can shop for deals from USA to Panama, it's wild.

There is no reason to give the Canadian incumbents any more money.

[jamal-kumar]

Key for me is that since I don't spend most of my time in Canada, I need plans without insane roaming fees. Nothing like that there.

I would get into detail about what plans I'm on but it feels too much like dropping my own dox.

Again this is two separate phone lines from two separate countries which work fine in Canada, costing less than one Canadian phone line would.

I have only one specific proposal - ban banks from giving horrible financial advise by changing one letter. If you want to understand where I'm coming from it's this [1]

[1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/marketplace-watchdog-advise...

[_aavaa_]

> it is hard to provide coverage in a massive country with low population. I keep hearing and I personally think it's a distraction.

Yes covering all of Canada would be very expensive because of the low population. But, coverage is spotty after driving only 30 minutes outside of a major city centre. And there aren't too many of those.

[heresie-dabord]

> an enormous [...] financial illiteracy

I suspect you're right that people don't care enough to make this a major political matter. But isn't financial illiteracy a common problem among workers and consumers throughout the world?

In some countries, a worker has only a small amount of vacation, no sick leave, no worker organisation, a wretched minimum wage, high rental cost, and no hope of owning a home to escape the threat of eviction.

There are places where health care is available only through an employer and the cost of health treatment can bankrupt workers and their families.

There are places where people pay taxes but infrastructure is not maintained and has become unsafe. The water may not be safe to drink and the electricity grid may be fragile but tax payers bear the exorbitant cost of for-profit utilities.

There are inexpensive talk-and-text plans in Canada. A generous cellular plan may still be a luxury for most people.

[jamal-kumar]

So no internet on that plan?

Bruh I live in a so-called third world country and no such restricted thing exists.

Can also drink the water juuuuuust fine.

Electricity grid is more an affect of extreme tropical weather. The Americans come here and point at messes of coils of wire on every pole - like yeah that's how we make it repaired fast when a tropical storm hits.

Health care is immediately available for less than a benjamin. If a Canadian doctor puts me on a waiting list on a visit back, I tell him sorry gonna do it somewhere else don't bother making another appointment.

[mthoms]

Hey "Bruh". The points you're making may be perfectly valid but your tone is condescending and childish. Maybe dial it back a bit?

We're all very glad you've found your utopia.

[jagger27]

Financial illiteracy is a little fucking harsh, no? We know we’re getting absolutely shafted.

[jamal-kumar]

Then why aren't you doing anything about it? Why is the contrast between Canada and the rest of the world palpably stark? Why do banks get away with disgusting loopholes like getting around laws by calling themselves "financial advisers" rather than advisOrs?

A little harsh? Do something about it enough that I might consider returning

[cmrdporcupine]

Oh please lost child return to us. We're begging you to come back. Gimme a break.

We are a country with 1/10th the population of the US -- the largest economy in the world and an aggressive military power -- and we're sitting right next to it, for most of our history barely holding onto an independent existence. Most of our "successful" industries consist of "ripping and shipping" raw commodities to service that market.

It should not surprise you why things are the way they are. It's gross how these domestic industries end up this way, captured by a cabal of self-serving corporate dickheads, but TBH on the whole the alternative would be raw subservience to US corporations who would steamroll our entire economy.

There is no easy answer, or it would have been done already.

[jamal-kumar]

I mean the easy answer for me was taking off, and now the country seems to be facing a brain drain. [1]

Good luck with that I guess.

[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/podcasts/the-decibel/article...

[cmrdporcupine]

This has always been the case. You're not special or particularly interesting.

It was, however, amusing watching so many Canadians return during the Trump years and COVID. Our Google office in Waterloo almost doubled in size from returning Canadians.

But we frankly should have clawed the subsidized portion of your tuition from you before you left the country.

[sandworm101]

They flocked back under W too. Canadians ebb and flow across the boarder depending on how crazy US culture is at the particular moment.

[908B64B197]

> It was, however, amusing watching so many Canadians return during the Trump years and COVID. Our Google office in Waterloo almost doubled in size from returning Canadians.

That was not my understanding of the trend at all. From all sources I've seen discussed over the years, it seems the Trump admin coincided with a record number of engineers coming to America from Canada. In 2020, 84% of graduating engineer from the Waterloo college went on to move to America [0].

However, what I was told and observed is that a lot of engineers previously working on H1Bs or other non-immigrant visas had their work authorizations revoked after the Trump administration decided to increase the scrutiny on "specialty occupations" [1]. From a friend of mine, I heard Canada was a popular destinations to send programmers who couldn't keep working in the US, no matter their passport, due to a lower bar on immigration.

[0] https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1351785083598893062

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-employmen...

[jamal-kumar]

I dunno I've been gone for a long time now. You want my tax return, too? I'll send you scans of my ID so you can steal my identity and score that

I love letting condescending Google employees steal my identity ever since deleting my Gmail account

[jagger27]

What exactly can be done? Vote harder?

[jamal-kumar]

Well considering if you voted in a party whose promise of voting reform has been heavily rescinded, I think pressing them to fulfill that promise would be a start.

[jagger27]

Not sure what gave you the impression I voted red or the authority to assert that I did.

When a Liberal federal candidate came to my door last election cycle the electoral reform about face was the first thing I grilled them on. I didn’t get a satisfying answer.

First past the post is not going away any time soon.

[TMWNN]

>The major sense I get from Canadians whenever I arrive back is an enormous sense of financial illiteracy. Like they just don't know or care about how badly they get ripped off all the time on so many things and will never care enough to do anything meaningful about it.

Why Canadians pay much more and have access to less despite living in a country that is 95% culturally, economically, and politically identical to the US, I do not know. I didn't fully understand the disparity until I read the amazing stories in a /r/canada discussion. victorn72's account <http://np.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/1ueai3/why_are_our_pr...> caused my jaw to drop open.

That said, isn't the sheer popularity of crossborder shopping an indicator that Canadians aren't financially illterate? That they do know what's going on, and act accordingly?

[11101010001100]

My hack was to create a company with 0 revenue and its only expense being telco bills. So far so good.

[jamal-kumar]

That's pretty damn clever, actually!

I have a friend who didn't graduate high school cause he was too busy playing world of warcraft all the time who is the only millionaire I know from those days and he pulls stuff like this off all the time too.

[lucasyvas]

Elaborate?

[908B64B197]

> I fucking left and haven't had a cell phone plan in Canada for like a decade. My bill on TWO FOREIGN PHONES even roaming WITHIN CANADA is cheaper than maintaining a stupid Bell Rogers or Telus plan internationally.

A colleague of mine had an acquaintance in the Canadian CBP who apparently managed to get a cell phone plan in America that included free roaming in Canada via a postal box. So he ended up paying half of what Canadians paid (and also had international roaming at much cheaper rates). Kinda ironic considering that, as my colleague put it, his job consists mostly of taxing people trying to get a bargain by shopping across the border.

[voisin]

> an enormous sense of financial illiteracy

With all due respect, I don’t pick up on this at all. I get the distinct impression that everyone realizes how much we’re getting screwed but has a learned helplessness that we are no match for the corruption of our corporate political overlords.

Protest over $150/mo cellphone plans? We don’t even do that over 35% growth in housing prices year over year over year.

[r00fus]

Doesn't T-Mobile USA have a free international roaming deal or something for North America + Mexico? Also back in the day Verizon had a "US+Canada" sub that was quite reasonable (not unlimited but nothing was back then).

[jamal-kumar]

It's a really sweet deal.

[ospzfmbbzr]

> The major sense I get from Canadians whenever I arrive back is an enormous sense of financial illiteracy. Like they just don't know or care about how badly they get ripped off all the time on so many things and will never care enough to do anything meaningful about it.

It's ration dis-engagement -- even if they don't know they are doing it. Deep down even the most dedicated sheep know they have no ability to impact anything.

Canada is a democracy but that doesn't mean what people think it means. There's zero public accountability for anything and it's only getting worse.

The 'solution' offered for this created problem is always more bureaucracy and government and taxes, but no accountability on results.

Canada is the country of the future..! If the future is the movie Brazil.