[mmh0000]

When I bought my first house, I purposefully avoided any neighborhood with an HOA because of all the internet scare mongering I had heard over the years.

After ten years of one neighbor parking cars on their lawn, another growing more weeds than blades of grass, and another with 8 vehicles parked along the street I was done.

When I bought my second house I specifically wanted an HOA. After another 6 years, I couldn’t be happier. Yes the HOA prevents me from doing a handful of things, things that aren’t really a big deal in the grand scheme of things. While the HOA keeps the entire neighborhood looking nice and slaps people on the wrist when they need it.

[quesera]

Keep in mind that some HOAs are cooperative organizations, and some are run by very damaged people.

Also keep in mind that getting together to organize a set of common standards and restrictions is the basis for all exclusive communities. That's OK if you are on the casual compliance side of the rules, or if you get to write them to suit your preferences. But it is discriminatory. Similar covenants have been used to keep out ethnic minorities (because of the way they live, like animals!).

Being for or against HOAs is like being for or against laws. It's meaningless without context.

Some HOAs are traffic lights. Some HOAs are civil forfeiture.

An HOA can morph from tolerable into unconscionable. Deny the HOA the right to exist in the first place, and it will never go bad. This is an appealing tradeoff for many.

[hamburglar]

> An HOA can morph from tolerable into unconscionable.

A friend of mine lived in an unconscionable one and managed to turn it tolerable by running for President on a platform of vowing not to enforce any rules. Stayed in “power” for quite a while.

[tomrod]

My neighborhood voted to abolish the HOA in 2002, about 5 years after being established. The developer has their finger in the HOA pie as a permanent seat; instead upon abolishment they were relegated to upkeeping the entryways per their sales contract and city agreements, only through voluntary funding by people in the neighborhood.

It's had mixed results. The neighborhood is surrounded by a brick wall that had a gap below (why??). The mortar is failing in several places. But the entry ways are kept pristine (developer is a big one in the area and has been slapped by lawsuits for not holding up their end before).

[OJFord]

I don't think it's quite what you're describing (sorry if it is) - but 'we [deliberately] have rules, we just don't enforce them' would probably be a pretty effective & pleasant one.

I suppose essentially that's just living in a society, i.e. as anywhere without a 'HOA', but codified.

[hamburglar]

It’s exactly as I described. He said he wouldn’t go after anyone for rules violations, and he didn’t. The previous busybody HOA President was quite bothered, but it seemed most people just wanted to be left alone.

[OJFord]

Yeah, that's how I understood it.

I just meant that you could also deliberately have rules (as opposed to come into office after them) and you do intend that people follow them, create new ones, update them, etc., but they're just not enforced, and everyone knows that.

As in just codifying some social expectations that would probably exist in roughly the same form anyway.

[hamburglar]

Oh I completely agree that that’s the effect. There were still rules, and I’m pretty sure there were even reminders sent to people breaking rules in ways that were legitimately bothersome (albeit without the teeth of enforcement fines), they just eliminated the problem of the petty rules cop fining people $50 for having their lawn a half inch out of spec.

[rayiner]

The road example I get, but why do you care what other people do on their property?

We bought our house in 2016, next to an old tear down house. (I’m talking about plants growing inside because the roof doesn’t keep the water out.) Recently someone bought the house, tore it down, and built a million dollar house in its place. The other day, he gets into a fight with my wife—over various things, but among them the fact that he’s mad we won’t clean our porch. I told him that he’s the idiot who built a million dollar house next to people who were happy living next to a tear down for years.

Now before, I felt a little guilty for keeping the pool toys out there all year, but now I’m definitely not going to put them away.

[gardenmwm]

Because other peoples property effects my my property, in value and enjoyment.

[Etheryte]

This is absurd. Other people don't have to live their life a certain way just because that makes you happy.

[gardenmwm]

No, but common courtesy and cleanliness is something that makes me happy. I’ve lived in neighborhoods that have had rat problems because of a single home that kept trash everywhere. Should I be inconvenienced because someone doesn’t want to do the bare minimum to upkeep their property? Would you be ok if I moved next door to you and hung nazi flags (this has happened to me as well)? When people behave in ways that infringe upon my life, yeah I can be irritated and want to live in an area that they aren’t allowed to do that. People who won’t respect others can continue to live in areas that let them get away with it. I won’t live like that anymore.

[nicoburns]

Causing a rat problem seems very different to letting weeds grow on their lawn. The rats will migrate elsewhere, potentially toward you. The weeds are pretty harmless.

[rayiner]

And there are county-level remedies for nuisances like that.

[lelanthran]

> Would you be ok if I moved next door to you and hung nazi flags (this has happened to me as well)?

Restricting nazi flags also restricts pride flags.

The question is "Would you be okay if I hung flags?"

What about other forms of displaying support? Are posters just a cheaper flag?

[lelanthran]

If you're going to restrict flags, restrict all flags.

Otherwise all you're doing is saying "this neighbourhood only allows support for these politics".

Are you sure you want to go that way?

[adwn]

Wtf. Those are not even in the same ballpark. One of them is showing support for people that want to live a "non-standard" lifestyle, the other is showing support for a dictatorial regime that started a world war and murdered millions of people out of some idiotic ideology.

[nsv]

Godwin's law.

[bentcorner]

Should I be allowed to disregard all others in the pursuit of my happiness?

[betwixthewires]

Disregard? Absolutely. Involuntarily involve them? Never.

[whatshisface]

If in a system of perfect liberty two people have a right to enter in to a contract, and three people have a right to enter in to a contract, and, inductively, as many people who want to live in a housing division have a right to enter in to a contract, then yes, yes they do.

[harryh]

So what? Those other people aren't obligated to do things that lead to your enjoyment. Please.

[Gigachad]

They are in a HOA area though.

[op00to]

What if they enjoy cars?

[fader]

I similarly heard all the horror stories and was nervous buying my current house because it has an HOA.

My partner and I started sending yearly thank you gifts to the HOA board after our first year here. They manage contractors and landscapers to handle upkeep and repairs on the property, coordinate information among neighbors, contract and negotiate with service providers, and even pass along helpful maintenance tips. (Most recently it was "most people still have their original hot water tanks and several people have had theirs start to fail -- it's a good idea to start replacing yours before it becomes a problem" which, as someone newly moved in, I hadn't thought about but sincerely appreciated.) It's like having an advisor on hand who cares as much as we do because they live there too.

I still side-eye the idea of HOAs, but I'm coming around. People talk about the horror stories but "everything is fine with my HOA" doesn't make for exciting reading.

[walrus01]

While I agree with you for the most part, the problem comes when you have an HOA led by some Karen who decides to fine you and make your life miserable for doing something like having the audacity to fly a pride flag. You got lucky that the handful of things you want to do aren't a big deal, or your local HOA doesn't consist of any overly zealous busybodies with nothing better to do than become the neighborhood stasi.

[OJFord]

> like having the audacity to fly a [doesn't matter] flag.

I don't live in the US, and at best the concept is very rare here, and I don't like the idea of it, but that sort of thing is exactly what I would like.

Flying a flag (why?!) has much more impact (probably negative) on your neighbours than it does (presumably positive) you.

[dr_spicy]

I think flying [let's say current nation's] flag, can very a bunch depending on the country, I know in Denmark as well as the US it appears much more common than in other parts of the world. And personally, once I'm used to a flag being flown, I don't really care which

[OJFord]

I don't care which either, that's why I elided the example in the comment I replied to - just to be clear I wasn't objecting to that in particular.

In the UK flying a union flag (residentially) would be extremely unusual - I'm aware of one, not where I live, and indeed it attracts scoffs and eyerolls - you do see England flags (St George crosses) more, particularly at certain times of year or certain years; that's more a signal that 'I am a football fan' than of patriotism, though.

Maybe that biases me against them in general. But even for things I do 'support' in some sense (I noticed a Ukraine flag covering a garage door recently, for example) I don't want a flag waved at me, and I wouldn't want a neighbour that did that.

[walrus01]

If you think having a pride flag is something that has a negative impact on my neighbors, you're exactly a fine example of the sort of proto-HOA stasi I hope never gets onto the board of one.

[bee_rider]

HOAs effect the members living situation, so they have the potential to generate some real horror stories. But it just seems like a particularly dramatic version of "people with happy situation don't post about them online."

My neighborhood growing up had a HOA that just maintained a little shared beach. They had a couple rules for yards, but nothing too onerous (don't have someone stay in a camper in your front yard -- a rule we actually broke, but just for a weekend or so, family visit with not enough rooms in the house). Annoying neighbors will find a way to be annoying, reasonable ones will find a way to be reasonable, the HOA is just a medium for this sort of behavior.

[mattnewton]

For the first two I just can't get that worked up over it, and for the last one it's the use of shared reasource (the street) that bothers me.

[cm2012]

Yeah, I get people wanting HOAs to maintain property values (Though I am not one of them, I chose a neighborhood with no HOA on purpose). I don't get people who genuinely care for its own sake about their neighbors lawn having weeds. Or the house having an unusual paint color. Who cares??

[jzb]

Depending on where you live and how bad a yard gets, it can be a real problem. Here, for example, it can be an invitation to snakes or other wildlife that aren’t confined to that property.

That said, I’m -1 on HOAs. I’ve heard far too many complaints and too few people happy with them to deal with one.

[WalterBright]

I've had quail, deer, mice, raccoons, coyotes, moles, hawks, snakes, lizards, bees, wabbits, squirrels, gophers ground beavers, bobcats, owls, and even eagles hanging out on my property. I'm in the middle of the metropolitan area, too. I don't mind them :-/ A couple years ago a coyote mom decided the front yard was the perfect place for her to watch her 7 pups grow up. She'd keep a weather eye on me, and I enjoyed watching them.

A couple months ago a coyote decided to poop on my front door. Obviously, it was sending a message, but I'm not sure what it was.

[WalterBright]

> but I'm not sure what it was

Probably didn't like my HackerNews posts!

[com2kid]

> I don't get people who genuinely care for its own sake about their neighbors lawn having weeds.

Certain types of invasive plans are noxious, outright poisonous, encourage hay fever, or just spread so fast that they can end up destroying neighbor's yards as well.

Plants don't obey property lines.

Edit: Unkempt yards can also be breeding ground for pests. From mosquitoes in still water to hoards of rats. Most people don't want to put up with those styles of annoyances that are trivially avoidable if everyone in the area cares just a little.

[WalterBright]

Hay fever comes from grass. Less grass makes me more comfortable at home.

Rats come from having edible garbage available and fruit trees dropping fruit.

The most annoying things about neighbors are dogs that bark all day, and the leafblowers and lawnmowers.

[nickjj]

> The most annoying things about neighbors are dogs that bark all day, and the leafblowers and lawnmowers.

Do you not encounter leaf blowers and lawn mowers in a HOA community? I would have expected it to be much worse because there would be maintenance crews doing it for every house in the area vs maybe a few houses on a ~20 house block.

[WalterBright]

Absolutely you do. The HOA I used to be in had that problem in spades. Weekends on a warm day were unbearable with the windows open.

[lupire]

These are all already torts or illegal under municipal law.

[whatshisface]

Unfortunately, the court system is not friction-less enough for "your weeds got in my yard" to be a remotely workable reason to go to court. It would be nice to live in a society where justice flowed as freely as municipal water and common law obviated the need for all other forms of organization or regulation, but in the real world going to court is so expensive and time-consuming that we need a lot of other forms of power around to avoid overusing that method.

If you have a plan for reforming the local judiciary to be so effective that HOAs are no longer necessary I am all ears, but I have not heard any proposals for doing that.

[c22]

You don't need to go to court. Most cities will be happy to fine your neighbors for "harboring pests".

[voakbasda]

Weed seeds blow across property lines and create problems for other people. It creates an undue burden on those that want to maintain a garden or other curated flora.

[nicoburns]

And mandating that everyone have a manicured lawn doesn’t place an undue burden on those who like wildness and want to curate that or want to grow vegetables?

[betwixthewires]

"Things happen by themselves outside, and having to deal with that because you want things in a certain way is an undue burden"

You know weeds are only weeds if you don't want them, right? Everywhere else they're just wild plants.

[WalterBright]

The bad weeds around here are spread by bird poop. Not much to be done about that, except mow them down.

[lupire]

Maybe going to war against natural native plants is a losing battle...

[vmladenov]

Why do you assume the weeds in question are native and not invasive?

[duxup]

Yeah I had a neighbor who decided it was time to open his in home auto repair shop.

Fortunately the HoA board didn’t look kindly on it for a variety of reasons/ issues.

He eventually moved. I hope he found a good place with a big garage and fewer neighbors to do that thing.

Same with the rental party house (before the days of air bnb(but same issues)).

[woah]

What's wrong with a guy repairing cars?

[duxup]

Single car garages, connected townhomes, limited parking.

Dude operated at all hours with air tools and etc and took up all the guest parking with broken down cars, leaking all sorts of stuff. He was also dumping all sorts of shit in storm drains and dumping his greasy parts and trash in other people’s trash.

The catch was this wasn’t a constant thing (well not until he chose to go full asshole), just often enough to be a pain, then stop, folks hope he was done, and then he would start up again.

Even had his customers wandering around looking for where he stashed their car and asking to park in front of people’s garage… other times not asking. A few would empty their car trash on the lawns and streets.

Edit I was curious and I googled him, someone with the same name got into tax trouble a few years later. I would not be surprised.

[lupire]

Aren't those cases covered by zoning laws?

[duxup]

Depends how obvious it is .

Put a car repair sign up then yeah. Be more “quiet” about it and claim and you are fixing a friends car and it becomes less easy / an ordeal for the city or county to act. Unfortunately the car repair guy was not honest and that was an issue.

Party house was a bit of an ordeal.

HOAs tend to fill a lot of zoning gaps.

[JackFr]

It turns out comprehensive zoning laws are not universal. HOAs are typically a response to inadequate (or at least perceived inadequate) zoning regulation.

However the concept of nuisance has existed in the common law for centuries and insofar as someone’s behavior might be a nuisance it has always been actionable.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuisance_in_English_law

[rdtwo]

They are but enforcement can be lacking. The hoa can nickel and dime a person enough that they will take the 10% property value hit to move

[bluGill]

There are legal limits to what zoning laws can cover. So HOA can be a way to sidestep state laws.

[eej71]

Some of you might enjoy the X-Files episode about an HOA with a sinister side.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751076/

[betwixthewires]

Let me ask you, why were you concerned about your neighbors parking in their yard or not weeding their lawn?

[mmh0000]

Let me answer you with snark:

Yeah, it's totally ridiculous that I would want to live in a neighborhood of like-minded people who would want to maintain and improve their most valuable possession.

I should be totally happy putting time, money and effort into the upkeep and improvement of my plot of land while my nextdoor neighbor adds to their collection of front-yard beer cans and beater cars.

[betwixthewires]

Alright, so let's remove the extreme scenario. Let's go somewhere in the middle and forget about beer cans and rustbuckets. What sort of different uses of property are you OK with your neighbors doing? What if a neighbor wants to turn his front yard into a mini orchard? Or a big garden? Or build a shed in the back without a permit? Or paint his house an unusual color? Say, he takes care of his property and isn't trashy, but just uses it differently than you do. How do you feel about that? Where's your line?

[hoseja]

What did all those neighbors do to you? Are you somehow damaged by being forced to gaze upon an unkempt lawn?

[hoseja]

Addendum: "Unkept" IS a word, more appropriate than "unkempt" here! Screw you, spellchecker!

[gorgoiler]

Two factors are at play:

HOA or not

Good folks or not

The balance between the two is nuanced and it sounds like you landed on a different side of the debate to me. I’m sorry to hear that, and I respect that, as a result, you have a different view of HOAs to me. Peace.

[peckrob]

Very similar experience here. Like you, I'd heard my fair share of HOA horror stories, so my first home was in a non-HOA neighborhood.

* One house near the entrance was bordering on being uninhabitable; rotting roof with tarps covering the holes, rotting siding, gutters hanging half on. Always shocked the city didn't declare it a public hazard.

* The people behind me would drag their TV and sofa out in the front yard every time the state's football team was playing, be noisy and would leave discarded beer cans all over the lawn.

* The people in front of me left a disabled car in the road for more than a year. Suspension shot, tires flat, windows busted out and left in the rain. After a year I finally called the city, who sent a code enforcement officer out. The person's response was to push the car out of the road ... into the front yard.

* My next door neighbor mowed his yard about 4 times a year. I even offered on several occasions to mow it for him, just because I didn't want to look at it.

My current neighborhood has none of the above problems. We have a low-BS HOA that basically exists just to be sure the common areas are maintained and that the homes are maintained to a minimum standard as specified in the rules. Otherwise, they stay out of your life. I was even on the board for a few years; we issued a grand total of about 8 warnings and zero fines in that entire time - and IIRC all of the warnings related to parking. Often, just having rules and an enforcement mechanism is enough to ensure minimum standards are maintained by the vast majority of people.

Also, an underrated HOA benefit we discovered is that they are great for collectively getting the city's attention when we need something fixed. We've had problems with potholes forming in some of the roads and, for a long time, the issue was ignored by the city despite numerous homeowners complaining. Until we got our HOA's legal representative to draft a letter to the city. The next week all the potholes were fixed.

I have never had a problem with the HOA preventing me from doing something, even if it was technically against the rules. Last year our HVAC went out and it was going to be a week before we could get it replaced. The HVAC contractor loaned us some window units to keep the house cool until everything could be ordered. Technically window units are against the bylaws. I didn't even run it by the HOA, just put a sign in the window above it saying it was temporary until next week. No issues at all.

The key with HOAs is to be involved! Think of them as mini-municipalities, like a town within a town. And, as an owner, you are entitled to attend the meetings, introduce measurs to change the bylaws, vote on business and hold office in them. This is why "Karens" tend to get and retain power - because no one opposes them. In our HOA, about 60% of the houses never voted and most rarely attended meetings. Sometimes it was hard to even get quorum, and elections were often uncontested. The way I ended up as secretary was because literally no one ran for it. Don't like the way your HOA is being run? Change it. There's a pretty fair chance you'll succeed.

I know the Internet largely hates HOAs, and it is true that there are a fair number of really bad overbearing HOAs out there. A friend of mine once got cited for having grass a half-inch too high. But I think people focus too much on the extreme; there are actually a lot of fairly nice, low BS HOAs out there as well.