[jjoonathan]

It's every bit as dumb as "sovereign citizens" trying to argue that they aren't subject to traffic laws because of a centuries old maritime treaty. Unfortunately, it's the people in charge slinging the dumb argument, so it flies.

[icambron]

What’s weird is that American higher courts are often quite good at eviscerating this kind of nonsense, usually by pointing out that such a “workaround” would make the constitutional amendment toothless, and it was not meant to be toothless, so the workaround is bunk.

That civil asset forfeiture has survived is simply because the courts are gutless about it.

[rland]

Huh?

There is a very long and plainly wrong string of Supreme Court decisions which stretches all the way back to the nation's founding. The courts are very good at precisely the opposite thing that you're describing.

I think most people kind of assume that the courts are this sort of shining beacon of enlightened liberal thought: they occasionally seem to have "duds" -- but those are intelligent and well reasoned duds. They're interpreting the constitution in a way some don't like, sure, but still upholding it nonetheless, right?

I mean, this thread here about civil asset forfeiture is a great example. If you ask any non-lawyer brained person whether it's wrong, they'll say, yeah, of course it's illegal for the government to just steal your shit. Why is this even a question?

Oh, but no, you see, the courts have wisely decided, using an argument that you might hear from a 5-year-old ("actually, this piece of property is actually a mystical ghost that we can treat as a people!"), that stealing your shit is, in fact, legal.

I really encourage anyone curious about this powerful and unaccountable institution to read some of the shittier Supreme Court decisions. They are often, simply put, stupid. Like, a regular non-lawyer person can read them and handily "eviscerate" their arguments.

[jjeaff]

My favorite, idiotic decision from a higher court this year was the judge that argued in her opinion that the federal government's legal authority to protect the public from infectious disease did not extend to mask requirements because the law says they can require sanitation, but wearing a mask doesn't "sanitize" anything.

Ignoring the fact that the point of a mask is to "sanitize" the germ filled air coming out of or into your mouth, the same law says "or other measures" as needed to protect the public.

It was such poor logic, especially considering the context of the original law at the time (fighting tuberculosis) and the potentially damaging aftermath of such a precedent (not hard to imagine a future, more deadly virus that some politicians decides is a political inconvenience).

[robonerd]

Governments doing stupid shit like this only encourages "sovereign citizens" to think similar word games and semantics will work for them too. They're naive of course; they seem to think the system is a machine indifferent to class or social standing, which simply isn't the case.

[whatshisface]

Class or social standing aren't the right lens for this, I don't think Warren Buffet vs. Three Dollars would fly in court.

[robonerd]

Warren Buffet could do it if he wanted, using his wealth to earn the favor of the right government officials. He could even buy himself a private police force to do the seizing. A real police force, licensed by the state but employed and paid by himself. This sort of thing is already a reality in America.

Anyway, my point is sovereign citizens seem to see the system as a machine, the function of which can be manipulated by giving it cleverly formulated inputs. They have a hacker mindset. They see lawyers and politicians doing this sort of thing all the time, and believe they can do the same if only they find the right incantation. It's as though somebody witnesses the Fonz hit a jukebox to make it work, then figure they can do the same trick if they hit that jukebox in the same way. Except it will never work for them, the jukebox only behaves that way for the Fonz.

[t-3]

Certainly some sovereign citizens see the system as a rigid machine, but many simply believe it should be and act accordingly. They are idealists, not necessarily deluded about reality or trying to hack the system (although those types definitely do exist, I won't deny that). It's almost like a way of turning your life into a demonstrative protest against the "big lie" that is the law and refusing to fall in line.

[pas]

> not necessarily deluded about reality

but the reality is that law was never this, and their life of protest is led against a straw man, and it's completely ineffective in bringing reality closer to that principle.

[t-3]

So, we should never try to be better, because the past and present suck? Your logic is extremely cynical and self-defeating. No change would ever occur with such a mindset.

[Mountain_Skies]

It could be argued that Buffet already has such power, as there are all kinds of weirdness around the police forces belonging to the railroad industry in which he is heavily invested through BNSF. I've never heard of him abusing this power but the potential certainly is there.

[jessaustin]

That would totally fly in the courts of e.g. Judges Kaplan or Preska.

[zionic]

I'm no "sovereign citizen", and occasionally enjoy compilations on youtube of them getting owned in front of a judge (makes for a good laugh).

I do however find some sympathy with _one_ of their arguments, where they argue they never consented to be governed.

I mean when I think about it, I was born into an established system that imposed its rules on me from birth. I had no say in accepting/rejecting the rules. I'm essentially property of the state, subject to its whims with little to no hope of changing them. So I get where some people come from with a "naw fuck that" attitude, even if I see such resistance as futile.

Not directly sov-citizen related, but that does intersect with a broader community of people upset over how property works in the US. Namely, you don't own a damn thing. All deeds/titles are fee-simple, in that you merely buy and sell the right to rent that land from the government for as long as you can afford it. "Renters" in the colloquial sense are really renting twice, which is why "owning" is better. True ownership of property however no longer exists in the US.

Maybe we can experiment with better society designs on mars, where landowners are truly sovereign and the state only owns the commons. Enforcement then only exists in the commons (and optionally on property with the consent of the owner).

[DerpyBaby123]

Plato's Crito[1] deals directly with this question, after Socrates has been found guilty and sentenced to death for 'Corrupting the youth', his friends offer to help him leave the city rather than die.

To paraphrase, Socrates says "Though not explicitly, I have by my actions agreed to be ruled by the laws of Athens by carrying out my life here and not choosing to move away to somewhere with a different set of laws"

[1]http://www.columbia.edu/itc/lithum/wong/textclip.html @ [52b]

I believe Plato will say they consented to be governed by this state, not at birth, but throughout their life by choosing to stay in a place that is governed by this state and enjoying the benefits.

[somenameforme]

I think that's somewhat different because in Ancient Greece there was extreme decentralization. Cities were sovereign entities with an extreme diversity of ideological and other values. Compare Athens and Sparta, for instance. And so in this system, if one stays in a city then there is a strong argument to be made that they are implicitly supportive of the laws and rules of said area.

In modern times this isn't really the case. There tend to be immense legal restrictions on movement, let alone living + working in different areas. And the differences that do exist between even nations within the same "sphere" tend to be relatively negligible compared to, again, the sort of monumental differences you'd see just between different Greek city-states like Athens/Sparta.

[vkou]

> There tend to be immense legal restrictions on movement

There were extreme legal restrictions on movement in Ancient Greece, too. You couldn't just pack up your bags and move to Spara or Athens and become part of the citizen class.

And as a non-citizen, there were a lot of different ways that you could be abused by citizens, with little recourse.

Just because despotism and abuse was decentralized, doesn't mean that it wasn't despotism and abuse.

[t-3]

Socrates was never a citizen, nor were the vast majority of the residents of Athens in antiquity.

[vkou]

And how well did that turn out for him/them?

[DerpyBaby123]

Do "sovereign citizens" make to overcome those restrictions on movement? Is there any effort given?

[t-3]

Yes, many purposely don't have driver's license or ID.

[adolph]

"a place that is governed by this state"

In your belief, from what comes Plato's link between place and state? Places exist before states and often afterward. Can a state exist without place? If a place can exist without any particular state, can a person have a link to a place independent of a state?

[DerpyBaby123]

I do not know enough to answer about that question, nor to say if Plato even makes that link honestly. I think you're arguing with my summary.

Imagine if I'd edited it to read: 'choosing to stay within the bounds of the government, and enjoying the benefits'

Sovereign citizens do enjoy the benefits of the US state, do not reject them nor make strides at moving away from them (from anything I've read).

[JTbane]

>I mean when I think about it, I was born into an established system that imposed its rules on me from birth. I had no say in accepting/rejecting the rules. I'm essentially property of the state, subject to its whims with little to no hope of changing them.

Would you rather be born into a state of anarchy? I think Hobbes addressed this.

[adolph]

As a counterargument to Hobbes here is an excerpt from "The Dawn of Everything" in which Graeber and Wengrow argue that Hobbes' assertion isn't based in evidence.

https://lithub.com/the-dawn-of-everything-is-not-a-book-abou...

[Manuel_D]

Most of the anthropological evidence sides with Hobbes. The rates of violence in hunter gatherer societies is massive, with 10-15% of people dying at the hands of other humans. For the 20th century, despite two world wars, this figure was about 2%

[tnjm]

The evidence is very sparse, and what we do have suggests that modern hunter-gatherer societies are, on average, no more violent than humanity in general. (My personal if limited observation, having lived briefly with several, is that they seem to be notably less violent than the -- often frontier -- communities around them.)

Steven Pinker has muddied the water with quite a lot of nonsense in The Better Angels of our Nature. An interesting, better-sourced and less cherry-picked read is a 2013 paper in Science[0].

[0] https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1235675

[Manuel_D]

The evidence is not sparse, it comes from a diverse set of sources from observation of existing hunter-gatheter communities across different continents as well as archaeological evidence. It's true that violence is much lower in absolute numbers. But by virtue of drastically lower overall populations, the proportional rate is much higher. 5 people killed our of a kin-group of 100 people is like 15 million people killed in the USA.

There is an appeal to the thought that humans in a natural state are peaceful. Because if modern society has made mankind violent, then we can hopefully roll back it's influence and restore us to that peaceful state. But that's not what our evidence suggests.

This article examines existing hunter gatherers: https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2007/12/19/nobl...

For a book that dives into the archaeological evidence, see War in Human Civilization by Azar Gat.

[AnimalMuppet]

And they're right. They never (formally, explicitly) consented to the rules. But therefore... what?

They have three options. One, they can choose to live and operate under those rules. Two, they can work within the system to change the rules. Or three, they can go somewhere that has rules more to their liking. This isn't a prison; they can leave any time they choose. One could even argue that by staying in the country, they are (informally, implicitly) consenting to be governed by its rules.

But instead, they try a fourth alternative: Stay, but pretend that the rules don't apply to them because of laughably bogus legal theories. That doesn't work, no matter how many new legal theories they try, and no matter how much bogus logic and philosophizing they throw at it.

We've got a lot of non-sov-cit people who don't consent to the rules. We call them "criminals".

[everforward]

> Or three, they can go somewhere that has rules more to their liking. This isn't a prison; they can leave any time they choose.

That's an illusion of choice, though. There isn't any unclaimed, habitable land anymore. If your views don't align with any of the 195 existing countries, then this isn't actually an option. It's just 1 or 2, but in a different location.

You can't be an anarchist, ever. There's nowhere to do it. If you want to live somewhere that pledges itself as a Christian theocracy, you better hope you're Catholic. Ditto for most religions, really. Or if you want to live in a sovereign entity with the population of a small town.

The options are really just "suck it up" or "spend your whole life trying to change it". I'm genuinely curious what the sovereign citizens would do if they were allowed to secede any land they own. It's not for me, but I am curious whether they'd actually leave or if they just don't want to follow the rules.

[necovek]

While your three options are the three practical options, one should note that it's not trivial to move to whatever country you might want, and not just because of costs.

Getting a work permit in another country is usually pretty hard, for instance.

Still, even with that, I think we (as a society/civilisation) need people like that, challenging the system in all sorts of ways. And not everyone not obeying the rules is a "criminal" — none of the civil offenses qualify, for instance, even in the legal sense.

Of course, some of those "challenges", especially most of those criminal ones, should be dealt with proper "retaliation" (prison sentences, large penalties...) from the society so it's obvious which "challenges" are not welcome. But let's not forget that many of the things we take for granted today have been criminal in the not so distant past.

[vkou]

> While your three options are the three practical options, one should note that it's not trivial to move to whatever country you might want, and not just because of costs.

It's also not trivial (Next to impossible, actually) to survive alone, completely independent of society.

If you want the benefits of society, you have to abide by its rules.

[necovek]

Oh, I am not disagreeing with that (though I am sure it is possible in a remote area without roads or any other society-provided infrastructure).

I still think it's good that all norms are being challenged even if it's often times hypocritical or selfish.

[landemva]

And how do we keep government employees honest when the courts uphold government immunity? In the present topic of Michigan town extortion, how will the government employees be financially and criminally punished?

[vkou]

By engaging in government. You know, voting, protesting, primaries, lobbying, running for office, propagandizing, working with organizations who do all those things, etc.

[zebraflask]

A variety of protests, I'm sure, would look askance at much of this comment.

The sovereign citizen material, though, really does leave the impression that there must be something underlying the absurdity.

Mental illness? It generally comes across as the type of homegrown rant material you'd find stapled to a telephone pole.

[AnimalMuppet]

See, a protest - even civil disobedience - is working within the system to change the rules. Sovereign citizen stuff? Not so much.

[LocalH]

Working within the system isn’t always the answer. Was the Boston Tea Party “working within the system”?

[gwright]

I've wondered at times if it would make sense for there to be an explicit legal proceeding at the age of majority in which you explicitly opt in to the social contract analogous to the naturalization process when a foreigner becomes a citizen.

I get hung up on what happens if you choose not to opt-in.

[landemva]

You would still be subject to not harming others nor break a voluntary agreement/contract. People have rights, and may defend themselves.

[tarboreus]

I think if you don't think we'll have the same thing on Mars as we do on Earth, then I have some NFTs to sell you.

[robonerd]

(I'm skeptical of the very premise of colonizing Mars, but putting that aside..)

I expect what forms on Mars, at least initially, will resemble the high seas a lot more than it does any country. You'll have facilities owned and commanded by corporations operating under flags of convenience, more or less free to engage in any nastiness they like (at least until a navy or coastguard with guns shows up to enforce their will on the facility.)

[tarboreus]

Perhaps, though that seems like an unstable equilibrium. By the time we have communities up there, they're have their powerful and their not powerful, just like we terrestrials.

[the_only_law]

At this point, I’m convinced Mars is going to be some sort of neo-feudal territory.

[_jal]

> where they argue they never consented to be governed

They also never consented to birth.

They are free to renounce their citizenship, however. Nobody is forcing them to stay US citizens.

> Maybe we can experiment with better society designs on mars

Hate to break it to you, but Mars colonies (assuming they ever exist) are going to be dictatorships. Lifeboat ethics don't leave a lot of room for arguing, let alone voting.

[kaybe]

Is it really that easy for US citizens to leave? Where can you go if you have neither money nor education or skills and are older?

[fencepost]

You can leave most countries and renounce citizenship, typically with some hoops to jump through but it can be done.

The questions of where you'll go and how you'll support yourself are something that you'd best figure out before starting that process, because after you start your country of origin may well say 'not OUR problem anymore' about you.

[tempestn]

That's not really the US's fault though, right? "You're free to leave, but if you want to stay here you have to abide by our rules," sounds reasonable I think. There are countries in the world where you're not free to leave even if another country will take you, and this argument would hold a lot more water.

[t-3]

Renunciation is not free - they literally charge you for it. You also can't renounce without obtaining another citizenship, which, surprise, surprise, you generally have to buy with both time and money.

[_jal]

Free as in freedom, not beer, as they say.

But Sovereign Citizens are rugged individualists who don't need no handout, eh?

> You also can't renounce without obtaining another citizenship

That is false for US citizens. See:

https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship

[edgyquant]

The book Decline and Rise of Democracy goes into detail about this. Pretty much all nations that had a resource jugular (I.e. Egypt with the Nile) become extractive societies.

[landemva]

>> you merely buy and sell the right to rent that land from the government for as long as you can afford it.

You seem to be speaking of property tax on land. Did you know not all land is on county assesor tax roles? Have you researched how to find land not in the county tax catalog?

[zionic]

I’m not aware of any land/states with no property tax. Have a link?

[c22]

That's the thing, they're not really wrong, they just lack the army to back up their claims.

I do think people should be allowed to sue their parents for wrongful birth, though.

[kbelder]

>sue their parents for wrongful birth

Nah, not when there's an obvious and simple remedy.

[eternalban]

If it was simple, people would be doing it left and right. More like 'they got me hooked on heroine'.

[caffeine]

I think parents should be allowed to hit their kids for being ungrateful little runts.

[orestarod]

Moreover, parents should own their kids since they gave birth to them. They should be legally be able to take every decision for them, and be their guardian, until they die. They gave their children birth after all.

[leephillips]

I’m not impressed. It just reminds me of children who, when they reach a certain age, start whining, “Well I didn’t ask to be born.”

[robonerd]

We tell these people about "social contracts" then smirk when they raise the common sense objection of never signing such a contract in the first place.

Of course a social contract is not at all the same as a real contract, a social contract is not a document that you sign, it applies to you whether or not you ever consented to it. But when language that seems to conflate the two is used to persuade people who don't really have a firm grasp on the way the world works, it seems cruel to laugh at their confusion.