[bowsamic]

So you're claiming that it's mostly placebo? That is absurd to me. Why wouldn't sitting down and doing a specific mental activity for 30 minutes a day (e.g. paying attention to breath) change something? It seems very obvious to me that it would train the mind in some way. This is a genuinely bizarre take

[taeric]

No. Placebo is a different thing. Persuasion would be closer. And I welcome being wrong. But spirituality of all types rings very hollow to me.

[bowsamic]

Meditation isn't really a spiritual act though, it's simply a form of mental training. It is like learning, or doing puzzles, etc. Do you doubt those things?

The spiritual part is how to frame the results and shifts that come from long-term meditation in a helpful worldview.

Have you tried it by the way? It sounds like you aren't quite aware what it even is

[taeric]

For those that are neither spiritual nor meditative, they are both far away in thought.

I have tried meditation before. Never did a weekend retreat, but used to do guided classes. They left me a bit high and dry. And they felt exactly the same as old religious acquaintances on how that helps guide and inform. I /do not/ doubt that it works for the folks it works for. I clearly have doubts that it is a general thing that even can work for everyone.

[bowsamic]

Anyone who sits and keeps their mind on a single object for 30 mins a day will eventually experience _some_ kind of effect from it.

[taeric]

Strictly, this is almost certainly false. If only because there is a ridiculously wide range of the ways that people think.

Loosening it to most people, I mean, maybe? But then why does the nature of what you focus your thought onto matter? I suppose the mechanism is that you are effectively forcing a wiring of whatever in your mind is responsible for consciousness? Makes sense that you can effectively train your consciousness by rote in much the same way that you can train your arms/hands to juggle.

But, at this point, we have to establish that consciousness is the same between us. Certainly plausible. I'd go so far as to say likely. But not guaranteed.

[bowsamic]

The nature of what you focus your thought on doesn't matter, the object can be anything.

> Makes sense that you can effectively train your consciousness by rote in much the same way that you can train your arms/hands to juggle.

It does, so why are you arguing against it? You claimed it only has an effect by some kind of vague suggestion.

Of course, strictly, it's also false that working out with weights will increase muscle mass. You are just being needlessly pedantic. Your claim has shifted from "I think all effects of meditation are just a kind of self-propaganda" to arguing some crap about the nature of consciousness.

Why do we even need to speak of consciousness? If it confuses you that focussing on a meditation object for 30 mins a day might do something, I dread to think of how the concept of learning or memorisation sends your head into a spin