[taeric]

I push back against the "of course there are going to be negative outcomes." The evidence at hand is strictly that there are depressed people and that panic attacks and suicidal tendencies exist. Unless the studies show a significant uptick in how many people feel these after starting meditation, this feels akin to the logic people use to show that vaccines cause autism.

[vorpalhex]

All of these adverse effects happened during or immediately following meditation. That metastudy gives a base rate of 8% - that is waaay above background noise.

Ibuprofen is a great drug and I recommend it. It also kills people, is toxic, and can have severe side effects especially when misused.

If something is powerful and has an effect.. it will have side effects and negative outcomes.

Even as a secularist, I think we lost some of safety practices that were encoded in religious meditative practices.

[taeric]

8% is indeed quite high. My gut would be more that this is the selection bias, though. Folks that are looking for things such as meditation to help with mental health, are more likely to have trouble with mental health. Such that I am still suspicious of this data.

I should say that I'm fine with the idea of pushing for caution. I just have major suspicions when a practice is pushed with a mentality that you need expert guidance to get layman benefits.

I should also state that my personal stance is that the majority of meditation, if it is working, is not working for the reasons that the practitioners think it is working.

[vorpalhex]

I don't think the harm data means you need to go pay a yogi $400 for lessons.

I think we need to stop telling people meditation is a perfect little peaceful practice and instead treat it like ibuprofen.

If you are meditating and you start feeling anxious or in a bad way.. stop. Stop meditating and go do something else. Maybe talk with a therapist.

If you start feeling depersonalization.. stop meditating.

You should inform your medical practicioners that you meditate, the same way you tell them if you take ibuprofen on the regular. They probably don't care, but it's good to know.

You probably should ask yourself "is the benefit from meditation exceeding the side effects?" If no.. then stop doing it.

Taking more ibuprofen is not always the right course. The goal of meditating should not be to meditate more.

[taeric]

Amusingly, I am probably harsher on meditation than you seem to be. My stance is more that if you are otherwise healthy and making good choices, go for it. If you are wanting to use it as a treatment for problems/discontents in your life, expect that it won't help, and focusing on your problems is likely to lead to other problems.

Comparing it to ibuprofen strikes me as begging the question that it has a mechanism. Something I am not quite ready to cede.

[bowsamic]

I’m confused. Are you claiming that meditation might literally have no effect?

[taeric]

Not literally zero effect. But I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the effect is the same as how propaganda works.

I take it as similar to inversion tables. Could it help some folks with their back pain? Absolutely. Does it do so for the reasons they put forward? Highly unlikely. (Acupuncture is similar. Homeopathy? Maybe...)

[bowsamic]

It’s more like claiming that weed causes forgetfulness

[taeric]

You need way more evidence to really claim that, though. Would be like claiming weed causes laziness in people. I've seen just as much evidence that lazy people are drawn to it. Such that it is a classic selection bias problem.