[abzolv]

If average Jane, who is not a raving Tesla fan, wants to spend circa $140K on an EV, and she has to choose between the Mercedes EQS 580 and the Tesla Model X, which one would you say is the no-brainer (better value for money)?

https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/class/eqs/sedan https://www.tesla.com/modelx

That is the future of Tesla. Increasing competition by better products offered by manufacturers with far more experience in manufacturing vehicles, and far superior dealership, service, and parts networks.

[JoshCole]

At both price points on the link the Tesla vehicle metrics are dominant over the Mercedes vehicle metrics. In fact, the $110k cost Tesla has better metrics than the $130k cost Mercedes: it is faster, accelerates faster, has higher horsepower, and has higher range. If the average Jane has $140k and wants the best value for money it is really hard to see why they would choose the objectively inferior car according to most metrics. They could save $30k and still have a better car.

I really don't understand, at all, how you can conclude that it is a no brainier to get a Mercedes? It seems like a really ridiculous conclusion?

Just clicking around on the site and trying to do the order shows you are wrong that Mercedes is far superior on non-car related things. The dealership model is famous for its failings. Car salesmen have a notorious reputation. The website for Tesla lets you put in a purchase order within three clicks, no interaction with a dealership. The Mercedes purchase workflow had more like seven clicks and it resulted in getting an interstitial telling me to talk to a dealer about how the car wasn't going to have all the features because of chip shortages, that the price would change as a consequence of that, and directed me to talk with a dealership.

How is that better? How is not giving me the listed price but making me go through a high pressure sales channel superior to just letting me buy car the now? I don't understand at all how you can say that dealership model is far superior. Is it right in your eyes that someone poor at negotiating should have to pay more than someone who is better at it? I don't get it. I don't understand at all how you can think Mercedes is providing the better experience.

[marbletiles]

“Range” is likely the only one of those metrics Jane will care about. This sounds like one of those rants we used to hear about “why would anyone buy a Mac when PCs have higher specs??”

Mercedes does cabin UX like Apple does software (and BMW is better still). Maybe Jane wants a button for her wing mirrors. And door handles that work. Actually comfortable suspension. An instrument cluster. A dealer to look after her from decision to delivery.

[JoshCole]

I've opened Tesla's doors, enjoyed the suspension of the Tesla finding it comfortable, and when I adjusted my mirrors I used buttons on the steering wheel. Usually I don't have to adjust the mirrors, because the car can automatically detect that it is me who is driving and it has memorized my mirror preferences.

Why are you lying?

Why not focus on the metrics? For example... Storage space. The Tesla? It has four times the storage space. Eighty eight cubic feet to twenty two cubic feet. The person you are defending didn't bother to announce that they created a different comparative context and no wonder - even the Tesla Model 3 beats Benz across pertinent metrics like range and storage space despite costing $50,000-$80,000 less depending on configuration choices.

Look, you can like Benz eight click and get told that you need to call the dealership and that the price listed isn't the actual price UX, but don't try and tell me that they are Apple. They aren't. Tesla lets you order in three clicks. Much cleaner. They also don't expect you to adjust your mirrors with buttons. Much much cleaner.

Oh, and who was it who removed the buttons from phones again? o.O Need to correct my worldview apparently. Thought it was Apple, but according to you they are the pro-buttons companies. Please, help darkens us with your ignorance. We need to unlearn the truth lest we make a good decision and save $80k getting a better car than Mercedes can provide.

[marbletiles]

“Lying” is a bit emotive, suggests you might be a bit too invested here to get the argument the GP was making.

Look, Tesla got early success in EVs by being considerably better where everyone else was weak (drivetrain, battery, software, charging network). That doesn’t mean it’s not weak where they are strong (QC, basic manfacturing competencies like panel gaps, dealer network, interaction switchgear refined over generations).

Yes, Tesla have also been innovative in attempting to turn those “bugs” into features - better online ordering, rapid response to QC fails, replacing complex switchgear with an tablet and a modally overloaded pair of dials).

Regardless, what matters is there are people who feel about Mercedes the way you clearly feel about Tesla. Emotion has always mattered with cars; you don’t win those people over with talk of cubic feet.

GP is betting there’s a huge market for “car like I always knew it from a manufacturer I love except with a battery” and I’ll bet they’re right.

[JoshCole]

> “Lying” is a bit emotive, suggests you might be a bit too invested here to get the argument the GP was making.

Emotion doesn't come into it. You built an argument upon a poor foundation. In strictly logical terms even if your argument structure was correct your argument would be invalid because its premises aren't correct.

You said several things that are objectively false. I know them to be false because I have first hand experience which shows me that they are false. Moreover, considering that Tesla has an industry leading satisfaction score, I know that my experience is not uncommon. What is uncommon, even vanishingly rare, is the veracity of the statements which you used when building the case against Tesla.

Perhaps I sound emotive because I referred to what you did as lying. The principle of charity isn't leaving me much room for you, because you are either wrong and informed or wrong and uninformed. You can take your pick, but whichever you choose don't cheapen the debate by appealing to me as being emotional.

> Look, Tesla got early success in EVs by being considerably better where everyone else was weak (drivetrain, battery, software, charging network). That doesn’t mean it’s not weak where they are strong (QC, basic manfacturing competencies like panel gaps, dealer network, interaction switchgear refined over generations).

This is a very different argument than the idea that it is a no brainer to go with Mercedes. You are moving the goal posts. It is a stronger argument too. Unfortunately, you don't support it well. For example, the argument for the dealer network being an advantage rather than a liability seems doubtful to me. Years back during the era Tesla was rising there were other EVs. Dealerships recognized that recurring revenue from maintenance wasn't as high for these vehicles. They intentionally sabotaged sales of EV vehicles, following perverse incentives, by doing things like giving test rides on vehicles which hadn't been charged and then using the resulting failure to persuade to other purchases. This is a liability, I think, but existing laws tend to protect dealerships as a model at the expense of car companies. So it isn't something that Mercedes and other car manufacturers can easily circumvent. Worse is that the experience at a dealership is much much worse than ordering things over the internet. Tesla just drives the car to your door after you order it. Dealerships expect someone else to drive you there and to go through high pressure sales channels. Tesla can pursue a three click and order model, but dealerships would be furious and go after automakers legally if they were cut out of the loop.

> Regardless, what matters is there are people who feel about Mercedes the way you clearly feel about Tesla.

Again, you are making a very different argument. We started with average Jane not devoted Mercedes fan. Trying to strawman my position by switching from average Jane to devoted Mercedes fan is not at all in keeping with the principle of charity. It also does a disservice to the OP you try to represent, because it contradicts their post, yet you act like you are speaking for them.

> GP is betting there’s a huge market for “car like I always knew it from a manufacturer I love except with a battery” and I’ll bet they’re right.

Which is reasonable, which lets you convince yourself you are right, but average Jane would rather pay $100k for four times as much space or save $50,000 to $80,000 and /still get more space and better range. And she might even like the Tesla aesthetic more than Mercedes: it is Tesla, after all, that has the majority of the EV market. Presumably if their aesthetic was strictly inferior to alternatives that wouldn't be the case. Regardless it doesn't really matter - taste is by its very nature subjective. It is the heart of qualia, not a criteria we can evaluate on behalf of others without knowing their preference set.

[marbletiles]

The principle of charity is to make the strongest possible version you can imagine of the opposing argument, and I also struggle with constructing yours. It appears to be “no electric car buyer with $140k to spend could ever rationally choose anything other than a Tesla”.

If that’s your position, as a Tesla owner who has invested an awful lot of effort across this post in battling Someones Wrong On The Internet, I’m going to say there’s emotion at play, yes.

If it’s merely “a Mercedes isn’t a slam dunk choice, Tesla still has something to offer”, well yes, that is true.

Regardless, and after reflecting on everything you said, I do now think Tesla is quite like Apple here. Just as with the first few years of the iPhone, they created the market and had it essentially to themselves. They offer a limited set of choices and highly opinionated take-it-or-leave design with fixed high prices.

Now the other manufacturers are arriving, just as the array of Androids did, with a variety of models, price points and customisability.

Now will follow years of mutual incomprehensibility and internet arguing over why one set of trade-offs are objectively better than another.

[JoshCole]

Just to clarify, since people seem to disagree with me that this person lied: my evaluation of his sentence paragraph has more than 50% of his statements as false, with only one statement being compelling.

(truth? "And door handles that work.") resolves to false, because the subclaim (truth? "Tesla door handles don't work.") is false.

(truth? "Maybe Jane wants a button for her wing mirrors.") resolves to false, because it includes the subclaim "Tesla doesn't allow adjusting of wing mirrors via buttons" which is a false claim.

(truth? "Actually comfortable suspension.") is a subjective claim, but I personally find the suspension to be comfortable. So at least from my perspective this is a false claim. Moreover, there are a multitude of Tesla options and they don't all share the same suspension style. So even if you didn't like one suspension style, you could still like another, negating the thrust of this point for a larger category than would otherwise be negated. Thus, it seems false to me in a more general way, despite the subjective nature.

(truth? "Mercedes does cabin UX like Apple does software") is a subjective claim. but I heavily disagreed with its veracity. Since then the person I'm quoting has changed their mind on the basis of reflection. While not a lie, this sentence now resolves to false according to their stated worldview.

(truth? "An instrument cluster.") resolves to true. It is a compelling reason that someone might choose not to get a Tesla. If we're not going to give them the benefit of the doubt there are models of Tesla that do come with this panel. We'll give it to them anyway. We'll give it to them even though the very car that we're discussing has a display above the steering wheel. We'll give it to them even though it is a different car than was used for the comparison which didn't have this instrument cluster.

(truth? "A dealer to look after her from decision to delivery.") could be true, but it is a highly subjective situation. Moreover, I don't find it to be well founded that the average person would prefer a dealership environment rather than an online order.

So 4 false, 1 true, 1 true but not particularly convincing.

At what point does stating falsehood transition from being ignorant to being lying? Because I feel they have went well past a reasonable number of errors. This isn't a case of the majority of their words being true. The majority isn't true. They are majority false and arguably all of them are false. At the same time that they are majority false they were derisive: I posted facts, but they dismissed me as someone who was ranting.

[dreamcompiler]

Or maybe Jane just wants to say "fold the wing mirrors" and then she doesn't need a button.

BTW thanks. I rarely need to fold the wing mirrors manually in my Tesla so I only tried doing it by voice today in response to your comment and it worked. What were you saying about the cabin UX?

[dreamcompiler]

It is indeed a no-brainer. The Tesla wins hands down.

I've owned many very good German cars for the last 30 years and loved them, but my Model Y makes them all seem quaint and obsolete.

--Electric cars don't need dealers. I want to be able to buy a car online without spending an hour kicking gravel and haggling with some commissioned salesperson over the price.

--Electric cars don't need as much service as ICE cars, and it doesn't need to be done at a dealer's high-profit service bay. When my Tesla needed its rear seat coat hook replaced, a technician drove to my house and replaced it. For free.

--Electric cars need very good batteries. Tesla has a 10-year, several-billion dollar lead over every other car manufacturer on battery technology. Everybody else is playing catch-up. Ditto for motors and single-piece castings.

--Electric cars need very good UI software. The Germans make the second-worst automotive UI software of anybody (only the Japanese do an even worse job). Tesla's UI has elements I don't like, but every other car's software experience is so bad it's not even worthy of criticism.

Mercedes, Porsche, and Audi are all offering electric cars with specs inferior to Tesla at much higher prices. This will be unsustainable after they stop coasting on their reputations and the supply of German car snobs who refuse to try a Tesla dries up.

I'm sure the Germans will eventually catch up; Mercedes invented the ICE car after all. But Tesla invented the modern electric car and it's a whole different beast.

[hnov]

It’s not snobbery, as a luxury car a Tesla is unimpressive. The styling and interior quality is comparable to a Mazda, not a Mercedes. I’m not a fan of the giant tablet for controls unless the car genuinely drives itself, even a generation old BMW’s iDrive 6 paired with carplay is preferable for me. They’re really different categories of product, IMO a Chevy Bolt is closer in spirit to a model 3 than a 3 series is.

[duped]

Average Jane doesn't have $140k to spend on a vehicle

[JoshCole]

Current price on your link is ~$100k not $140k. It was much more confusing to use the first site, but click through I found something that was also about $100k when you chose the budget options. Meanwhile, for all numbers that both Tesla and Mercedes list publicly the Model X has better numbers. For example, in horsepower and 0-60 the Tesla does better. For some numbers, the Tesla lists the number - like range - but the Mercedes doesn't.

Declaring my bias: I think this is because they are much worse in range. Now looking up the numbers: 340 mile range for Mercedes. 350 for the Tesla. I was wrong. Tesla was only better, not much better.

Clicking through to order takes several clicks for Mercedes. Along the way of the happy path toward immediate purchase an interstitial pops up and warns me that the price will be changed if I try to order because they don't have the supplies to service the order. Tesla by contrast just lets me order the car with a delivery date in January of next year.

To say your post is deeply misleading as to who is obviously the no-brainer in value for money is an understatement.

[JoshCole]

Opened the Mercedes site again to check some more. Tesla allows escalation to ordering in two clicks. After more like seven clicks Mercedes was ready to let me 'save my build' rather than letting me order. They also still continually warn me:

> Due to a worldwide shortage, semiconductor chips that are typically present in our vehicles are limited in supply. This has changed the availability of certain features. Vehicle pricing will vary and depends on the availability of certain features. Please verify with your dealer whether any feature is available in a particular vehicle. To learn more, please see your dealer.

Whereas Tesla just lets me put in the order with delivery in January.

[JoshCole]

Lets move away from the ordering experience. My experience with Tesla service is that I notice an issue, then with my phone, I put in a service request. They come to my house while I'm sleeping and fix the issue. Super easy. Painless. By contrast car dealership salesmen and auto mechanics have an infamous reputation.

I find Tesla to be superior. Maybe others won't, but personally - I find them extremely superior. Driving to a dealership sounds pretty lame to me. Especially if I'm having car trouble. Tends to be the kind of thing that makes driving to the dealership a bit annoying, you know?