[verisimi]

Coming from the UN, we already know what the answer will be.

More governance, more/better management of risk by the UN that is then delegated to its administrative regions (the US, EU, etc). This is because as long as we are talking about risk, this plays into the hands of a global governance structure. All risks should be planned for and managed - I mean the covid response was fantastic, right? What was wrong was not enough governance, of course.

But what about the risk of a corrupt global governance structure? If you think "democracy" was bad (where you vote once every 4/5 years, for someone else to represent you for that time), how much worse will it be if global policies are rolled out to everyone with no vote at all? Where if you disagree on what stakeholders (corporations, government and NGOs) have in mind for you, you're on your own. Which is where we are already..

No to a global tyrannical system - thanks. Next.

I think the best way to manage risks is to roll back the mega governance structures, ignore or undo government diktats. Put power in hands of local people, and no I don't mean implementing the UN cookie-cut 'local sustainable development plan' templates that we are all getting. Can we discuss that? Of course not - imagine a government arguing for less government!!

I want less government in every way - let local people decide for themselves what they want to do. In fact, we could have that today, if people stopped listening to these ridiculous self-authorising "authorities".

[blueflow]

> let local people decide for themselves what they want to do

- use leaded petrol

- build fridges using HCFCs

- burn trash

This stuff had to be forbidden by the government to make it stop. The UN might be some corrupt stuff, but the point of reducing government at all is nonsense. People on their own won't stop doing harmful things if they dont suffer the consequences themself.

[refurb]

So if let's say, Myanmar doesn't stop using CFCs. What's your solution? Send in some Blue Helmets to enforce global law? And what if they start shooting back? You want to send your son or daughter there?

And not to mention the politics of rich countries sending soldiers into poor countries to enforce rules. Colonialism 2.0. "It's the developed world's obligations to drag the uncivilized nations into the the 21st century"?

Sounds familiar.

[blueflow]

A country emitting enough HCFCs to wipe the ozone layer within a decade is a threat to the security of every other nation on earth (due to increasing ionizing radiation). So yes. Economic sanctions and military intervention.

I don't have kids, but i am in military age ("Wehrfähiges Alter") myself.

[refurb]

Ok and do what? Destroy the countries economy? Station troops at factories? Seize all vehicles and remove CFCs? Take all their air conditioners?

The idea is ridiculous.

[blueflow]

Occupy the country and enforce CFC-prohibiting legislature.

[refurb]

You mean like when the US occupied Vietnam and prohibited a revolution? Like that?

[juve1996]

I would posit another opinion. Say the ozone opened up above your country. Crops are dying in mass. Heat has increased exponentially. It's unsafe for children to be outside.

You're god damn right I'd go to war.

[glogla]

> You want to send your son or daughter there?

That is why unmanned platforms are really important military development.

[lapcat]

> So if let's say, Myanmar doesn't stop using CFCs. What's your solution? Send in some Blue Helmets to enforce global law?

But this is exactly why UN conspiracy theories are such a joke. The UN hardly ever enforces anything, because they can't. And the few times it does, it's typically US soldiers operating only nominally under the UN.

The UN is a bogeyman for ultranationalists, but it's mostly just issuing advisory guidelines with very little force behind them. It's not a global tyranny.

[Chris2048]

> Sounds familiar

Yeah, it sounds like the faulty science & religious justifications of Colonialism - but only matters if the current science is also faulty.

Is modern climate the same as Colonial race science? Or do we only act on what things superficially appear to be / sound like?

[refurb]

Residential schools in Canada were an effort to make sure the youth were formally educated as per Western standards (versus not even knowing how to read or write). That's not a faulty assumption, but it was terrible to use violence to force it on people using who never asked for it.

But it is pretty amazing how easily we can convince ourselves the oppression of others is for their own good, huh?

[Chris2048]

ok, premise: youth should be educated per Western standards

let's say that's a good premise.

Does that mean all implementations, whatever their details, are also good?

I don't think so. I don't think the logic follows.

> convince ourselves the oppression of others is for their own good, huh?

I' not sure I just did. You seem to have equated education to oppression by ignoring that not all education requires oppression. In fact, I think it's pretty telling that the crux of these matters (the oppression) is often a secret.

[verisimi]

You're right - but also wrong.

Governments built the roads - other solutions are conceivable. Tax payers paid once for the roads to be built, and are now paying for roads to made unusable for cars (lane restrictions, pedestrianisation, etc). That's a waste.

Did you know that electric cars were very popular 100 years ago - but because of the oil industry + government, they were quashed?

Government waves through unacceptable, unenvironmental behaviour by corporations. However, it does want the consumer who bought the fridges, to foot the bill! Consumers are ignorant of course of the unenvironmental impact of the products they were being sold - that's what government was ostensibly there for - all those agencies were meant to assure that we were getting decent products.

It hasn't worked as we thought - but it has worked out as corporations planned.

A bigger governance system is not the answer.

[lm28469]

> Did you know that electric cars were very popular 100 years ago - but because of the oil industry + government, they were quashed?

Er this is extremely simplistic. Electricity wasn't as common as now and battery tech was extremely shitty (requiring maintenance every few days, handling acids, &c.)

[nonrandomstring]

> > Did you know that electric cars were very popular 100 years ago - but because of the oil industry + government, they were quashed?

> Electricity wasn't as common as now and battery tech was extremely shitty (requiring maintenance every few days, handling acids, &c.)

When automobiles first appeared, gasoline was not as common as now and internal combustion technology was primitive, requiring almost constant maintenance, handling flammable liquids etc.

The modern IC automobile is unrecognisable from those of the Benz/Ford era. Had electrical vehicles been preferred for 100 years of government financial and policy support they'd be equal or superior to combustion technology, and vastly superior to Tesla and other EV's around now which are catching up on decades of lost development.

(but then neither of us have a time-machine to prove our post-facto fantasies about alternative histories)

[lm28469]

> When automobiles first appeared, gasoline was not as common as now and internal combustion technology was primitive, requiring almost constant maintenance, handling flammable liquids etc.

Yeah and one ended up easier to develop than the other. Even when we started producing proper batteries they were not good enough for cars (80s, 90s, 2000s), it took a few decade to get good engines, it took a century for proper batteries

[nonrandomstring]

> one ended up easier to develop than the other.

Because many hundreds of millions in research money went into doing so. Science and technology are not blind pursuits whereby we stumble across answers handed down by the gods. We progress according to our motivations.

This is the difference between so-called "technological determinism" which is an ignorant quasi-religious shrugging abdication of reason, and "science as agency", which is instrumental reason. It has it's down-sides, but the latter is infinitely preferable to the former, which, perhaps to labour the car-analogy painfully, is like taking your hands off the steering wheel.

[verisimi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicl...

"In 1828, the Hungarian priest and physicist Ányos Jedlik invented an early type of electric motor, and created a small model car powered by his new motor."

1828!!

"Rechargeable batteries that provided a viable means for storing electricity on board a vehicle did not come into being until 1859, with the invention of the lead–acid battery by French physicist Gaston Planté.[17][18] Camille Alphonse Faure, another French scientist, significantly improved the design of the battery in 1881; his improvements greatly increased the capacity of such batteries and led directly to their manufacture on an industrial scale."

"Electric battery-powered taxis became available at the end of the 19th century."

"To overcome the limited operating range of electric vehicles, and the lack of recharging infrastructure, an exchangeable battery service was first proposed as early as 1896.[41] The concept was first put into practice by Hartford Electric Light Company through the GeVeCo battery service and initially available for electric trucks."

It was viable technology!

[lm28469]

> It was viable technology!

Both were viable, one was much more easily developed. We can talk viability all day long, sadly it's history and there isn't much to discuss.

Solar panels are also viable and cheap right now, yet we don't use them much. Something existing and working doesn't mean it scales as easily as the alternatives.

If electricity storage is still a problem in 2022 you can imagine that it would be extremely hard in 1922. You can store gas in a bucket if needs be

[calvano915]

The viability was not properly assessed in regards to externalities of the targeted tech. Climate change, security related to oil, etc was not properly priced in.

[newsclues]

ICE vehicles are and were extremely shitty as well.

[coderenegade]

Electric vehicles weren't quashed, they were outcompeted by a more capable product. And to be honest, that's still pretty much the case even a century later. BEVs still don't have the range or the towing capacity of conventional vehicles, and charging one is still nowhere near the power transfer of a standard petrol bowser. That's not to say they don't work for a large chunk of the population -- I think it's pretty clear that they can and do -- but petrol cars are ubiquitous because they're capable of tremendous up-time, in any environment, require relatively little maintenance, and they'll perform for hundreds of thousands of kilometers even on an ordinary maintenance schedule.

I mean, I'd like to see the world move away from fossil fuels as well, but acting like BEVs are somehow universally better than ICEVs without acknowledging the tremendous ability and success of regular cars, and the shortcomings of BEVs, doesn't really help the cause, because in certain regions, applications, and for certain individuals, BEVs really are the wrong choice. There needs to be more acknowledgement of this, and acceptance of the fact that maybe a one-size-fits-all solution won't be the future of automobile propulsion.

[axiomsEnd]

Ok, but how removing the goverment will change that we have massive industries? Small groups of consumers will held accounrable companies?

[verisimi]

You say remove - I say rollback.

The sentiment should be that we have less government - we should empower individuals, not monolithic state apparatus.

It would ideally be rolled back slowly, keeping a steady focus where governmental power is continuously eroded. However, I also think that things are so wildly out of kilter now, that it is far more likely that things could become even more tumultuous.

I even think the tumult is planned for - we are in a somewhat artificial and managed crisis - the co-ordinated global response to the virus, was calculate to devastate Western economies.

The plan - as I understand it - is for us to be brought to our knees so that we accept/want even global governance as an end to our suffering. At that point, when the deal is done, the crises will disappear as the global technocratic goals will have been achieved.

[748]

I understand your distrust towards "Big Corporations" aimed at maximizing profit.. But I wouldn't trust individuals with many things govmnts regulate. We may be talking in different contexts, but as it was mentioned above, almost all aspects need a governing body that has the overview of the general state of things in order to properly "reduce damage". Same thing with speed limits - some people claim there should be no speed limits at night. If assigned to individuals to decide on this, well, there will be no speed limits. I understand your frustration with dysfunctional govmnts, but it is important to remember that we live in a non-perfect world and most "individuals" are not trustworthy either. And if we have to chose between two evils - the govmnts and "individuals" - it is reasonable to chose the least evil, which is the govmnt. At least in present times, what will be in the future - I don't know. However I am in no way a politician or sociologist so I have no actual knowledge in this, I am just writing my opinion here and it is not my intention to change your mind.

[verisimi]

> And if we have to chose between two evils - the govmnts and "individuals" - it is reasonable to chose the least evil, which is the govmnt.

Although that may appear to be the choice it isn't in reality. If you believe that government is a real thing the answer is always more government. However, the reality is that you are an individual. Government is an idea we can believe, a means whereby the individual can pretend to hand over their personal authority, as a child does with its parents. In fact, as an adult, you are autonomous. You don't have to do what other entities tell you to do, unless you agree. Well, you might have to do it on account of the use of force (actual or implied), but if you think it is wrong it cannot become right. Implied use of force is what government does!

So, if some group writes a bunch or laws, and calls them 'the Law' and says it is 'good', and even appears to be subject themselves to it, if you think the law is wrong you do not have to follow it. You are in fact an individual, and only have to answer to yourself and your conscience.

'Government' has no interest in helping you become a fully fledged individual, hence we are all indoctrinated from day 0. They have us believing that the infrastructure they provide is good, the best we can do, etc - even if they couch it as 'government is a terrible system except for all the others'. Anarchy has such a bad name - why? Because it actively holds 'no leaders' as its central tenet.

Ultimately, we are individuals living in a moral world. We have been miseducated and misled into authorising others to do things on our behalf - this is government acting in a self-serving way, that ensures it gains ever increasing amount of power at individual's expense. And then I say the 'government acting in a self-serving way' I really mean those individuals that manage and benefit from the parasitic governance system.

Morality itself, comes down to the golden rule, which I think is best stated as:

Do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated.

This basically says, everything you want to do is fine - as long as you are not harming others. And it is fine to protect others who are being harmed.

For fun, here is a story that attempts to imagine an alternative reality:

https://www.corbettreport.com/mp3/andthentherewerenone.mp3

(Its great if you can get past the wierd narration, which I think works..)

[heavenlyblue]

> we should empower individuals

Does that mean that I now have to spend my time in the evening doing the "monolithic state apparatus'" job instead of going for a meal with my partner?

[nonrandomstring]

> Does that mean that I now have to spend my time in the evening doing the "monolithic state apparatus'" job instead of going for a meal with my partner?

Yes. Because we are all responsible. But guess what, you'd be sharing the job with 7 billion other people, so the total workload would be like 5 minutes on a Thursday morning every other month. Could you spare that?

Please read a book called "Leviathan" [1] by Thomas Hobbes and maybe a little of Jean Jacques Rousseau's "The Social Contract" [2] to balance it up.

The state is not your enemy, but also it is not your nanny, there to wipe your bottom and hold your feeding bottle because you "pay taxes".

There's plenty of time for dining out and being a responsible, participating citizen.

[1] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3207/3207-h/3207-h.htm

[2] https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/46333

[mort96]

Don't dodge the topic. Propose how leaded gasoline would have been phased out earlier if only governments didn't make them illegal. Answer the same question for HCFCs.

[fzeroracer]

Are you going to actually answer the question of how corporations would've phased out leaded gas versus the government declaring it illegal due to the harms it posed?

You can't address the rollback of government without addressing the corresponding power increase in corporations.

[hnbad]

Government bad! Here's an example of businesses using their power over the government to do bad things. Let's deregulate businesses further so they don't need to use the government to do bad things because they can do them themselves.

Did I miss anything?

[verisimi]

Not really - but I think its a message that bears repeating.

Most people have been through the governmental education process and have been taught that the government is the only fair/legal/possible answer to all our ills. That 10+ formative years of propaganda to counter. Even more if you go to university and licensed to do your job - you are now vested in an exploitative system, that initiates harm against others.

Understandably people will want to stick with the devil they know until a/ they have worked through the alternatives and b/ understood that the problems commonly blamed on people are actually the natural outcomes of government policies.

[hnbad]

You're making an excellent argument why centralised power is bad. You're not addressing how those same power dynamics won't be recreated with "smaller government" if large businesses are already so powerful they can influence governments. It sounds like you're arguing the problem isn't the amount of power being centralised but who gets to control it and your solution is to replace any semblance of equal democratic control with unevenly distributed capital. So in other words, feudalism with extra steps, but instead of the divine right of kings we have a supposed meritocracy built on generational wealth.

Now, I'm with you that representative systems are undemocratic and centralised power leads to corruption and is a bad idea. Where we apparently differ is that my answer would also dissolve corporations by eliminating the concept of private property and use the minimalist government structures to provide social services and infrastructure rather than to protect private property.

[verisimi]

One thing at a time! I don't even think that most people are even on board with the idea that big government might not be the answer to all of our problems - most people like the way government is acting!

Things that I think should be mandatory is a lot more freedom of information. I'm absolutely not a fan of gatekeepers of information (eg the media) nor of any policies to manage 'misinformation'. At the present we don't even know what we don't know..

Given government is purportedly working for us, surely it should be the case that the info that is collected and gathered should be freely available to all of us, that would be great start. Eg with the covid info, why is this not available in real time to us all? What information does the government use to base their decisions on?

I think it is a small and simple step to take (provide information immediately) so we can see wtf is even going on. Let's also stop this 'misinformation' mud slinging, but level ourselves up to try to make sense of whatever info there is.

Re the point about private property. I love the way indigenous American tribes did not even have that concept. But, if we were to implement that, all that would happen is that no one would care. I'm totally fine with people owning property that they use.

I would approach this problem differently. If I were king (and obv. I'm not!) I would make all ownership fully traceable back to the specific individuals. Because, in fact, individuals are all that matters! Corporations/Trusts/Offshore arrangement/etc are just bits of legal paper, concepts. If we knew who owned what, I suspect that this would illuminating. Again, this would be just an information gathering exercise. I'm sure there would be lots of issues with that! but again, in the first place, all I'd want to do is have the information.

In general, I'm most interested in a calculated rollback away from monolithic institutions towards the individual. The general direction of travel is entirely the opposite though - and accelerating!

[andyjohnson0]

> let local people decide for themselves what they want to do.

How do we solve big, global problems like climate change, pollution, ecosystem collapse, pandemic prevention, food/water precarity, etc if everywhere is just local people deciding for themselves?

Have you heard of the Collective Action Problem [1]? Its basically why we have governments. Now think about about the scale of the problems we face right now: what systems do we need to address them?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem

[lapcat]

> I want less government in every way - let local people decide for themselves what they want to do.

Have you considered that local people might decide to form tribes, arm themselves with weapons, kill a bunch of people, and impose their own new government by force?

This is what often, perhaps inevitably, happens when there's a power vacuum.

The United Nations was formed in the aftermath of World War II, during which local people decided what they wanted to do was invade other countries and commit mass murder.

"If government just gets out of the way, then everyone will play together nicely and peacefully" is never how it works.

The key is to maintain a healthy balance between government and personal freedom. It's a difficult balance to maintain, but the alternatives — authoritarianism or anarchy — are always worse.

[marssaxman]

> during which local people decided what they wanted to do was invade other countries and commit mass murder.

Perhaps my schooling overlooked some detail of this era, but I had been under the impression that there was at least one megalomaniac fascist dictator involved in the instigation of that process.

[lapcat]

One does not simply become a fascist dictator without a large number of fascist followers and sympathizers.

It's not like Hitler invented racism. He was charismatic, and thereby became a leader of the movement, but he wasn't a magical pied piper. He told people what they wanted to hear.

Anyway, I'm not sure what the argument is supposed to be, because there's always someone instigating.

The Hitler example just reinforces the point about power vacuums and weak governments. Hitler only served 8 months in prison for a coup attempt (the Beer Hall Putsch) against the Weimar Republic, an extremely weak response that did almost nothing to stop his rise to power.

[marssaxman]

The previous poster said "I want less government in every way - let local people decide for themselves what they want to do." You replied that "local people decided what they wanted to do was invade other countries and commit mass murder." I pointed out that there was quite a lot of government involved in this decision, referring to the well-known history of certain WWII fascist dictatorships in which the entire society was effectively subjugated under the authority of a single person. Your response is... to... agree? I'm not sure how your argument counters the original poster's plea for less government.

[lapcat]

> I pointed out that there was quite a lot of government involved in this decision, referring to the well-known history of certain WWII fascist dictatorships in which the entire society was effectively subjugated under the authority of a single person.

You're completely ignoring how the dictatorship came to be. Hitler didn't just step off a spaceship from another planet and immediately become leader of Germany. There was a democratic government for many years before he came to power, and the Nazi party spent many years gaining political support during that time. In 1932, they won 37% of the vote, becoming the largest political party in the country. The people who voted for them were going down that path voluntarily. You seem to be taking the existence of a dictatorship for granted, a fact without any need of historical or causal explanation, as if nothing that happened before 1933 mattered.

The Nazi party was explicitly racist, explicitly antisemitic, explicitly anti-immigrant. And they were popular! So yes, this was local people getting together and deciding to form a tribe based on hatred of others.

[axiomsEnd]

How do we want to fight global warming, if we have rather big industries and local incentives pushing in favor of fossil fuels..?

[MrMan]

I dont think these libertarians care about global warming just getting Ruch using their short lives

[pfkurtz]

The opinions on this thread...

[10amxn10]

I personally see a global tyranical system (quoting the GP) as a far bigger threat than climate change doom scenarios. At least during our lifetimes.

Only time will tell.

[juve1996]

Climate change will be an exacerbating factor for the rise of tyranny. if the claims of climate change come true that will mean a lot of people needing to fight for basic resources leading to strongmen and tyranny.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Assuming a democratically elected government, isn't "less government" a way to take away power from voters to make decisions and manage commonly held resources?

Why is that a good thing? Who gets the power when voters lose it? Who gets to say what happens, when we can't all decide together?

[abecedarius]

You can think of the U.S. Bill of Rights as taking "power from voters to make decisions and manage commonly held resources". You might think of the above claim as simplistic, but it's no less so than is "yay democracy".

[YeGoblynQueenne]

Who said "yay democracy", please?

[abecedarius]

OK, sorry, I take back "yay democracy".

The point remains that restrictions on even democratic government are not a novel idea in liberal politics; it goes back to the beginning of written political theory. Hayek's The Constitution of Liberty is excellent on history and background and explores some ideas on modern issues.

[pedro2]

I agree with you but I'm easily swayed by liberal propaganda.

What's your opinion on unions?

[verisimi]

I see unions as one part of a 'bigger state' dialectic. The idea here is not that state supports corporations, but that the state supports the workers. Its all still about the government.

In fact, that 'argument' is already resolved - we are moving forward with what I think is fascism - government + corporations working together.

A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people." - Nietzsche.

I prefer this as:

The governance structure, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, government, am the people."

[MrMan]

we essentially have global anarchy in much of the world, where governments control very little. more of this is a recipe for more destruction.

[hnbad]

We do not in fact have global anarchy in any significant part of the world. That's not what anarchy means. You're thinking of rampant cleptocracies and oligarchies. Anarchy is the absence of hierarchies, not just "the government is dysfunctional or extremely corrupt".

[raspberry1337]

I stopped respecting the UN when they said they criticized Elon Musk for not giving them 6 billion dollars so that they could "solve world hunger". That's about as much as the state of Sweden donates to poverty every single year, and that is just Sweden alone. The total amount of charity donations worldwide is in the trillions of dollars yet there's always just more required. Bureaucrats with humanities degrees at the UN don't solve problems, if they were solved, their jobs would be purposeless.

And yea, I know they releasased a "plan" showing how they would split the 6 billion to different areas and stop world hunger 2022. Amazing work!

[Ekaros]

If one time donation of 6 billion would be enough to solve the hunger I think the nations with hungry in them could easily lend this much money and solve it once and for all. That would certainly have net positive ROI in long run for them.

[lm28469]

> I stopped respecting the UN when they said they criticized Elon Musk

The UN isn't perfect but it sure as hell better than no communication between countries at all.

Elon Musk is insignificant compared to that, "I stopped respecting the biggest world forum when they criticised an egomaniac entrepreneur" jeez...

> Bureaucrats with humanities degrees at the UN don't solve problems, if they were solved, their jobs would be purposeless.

Does it occurs to you that some problems can't be solved but only mitigated ? it's like saying covid lockdowns and vaccines were useless because "hey look, not so many people died in the end". The UN have done more to the world than Musk or any other single individual will ever do. It's not perfect, it's inefficient, it's expensive, it's still the best we can do. What do you imagine ? The UN work for 15 years, solve all of the world problems and retire ? The world is constantly evolving, it's not so hard to grasp

[raspberry1337]

>The UN isn't perfect but it sure as hell better than no communication between countries at all.

False equivalence, a typical error to defend something bad that it is in fact better than null, like we wouldnt have intercommunication without such a bureaucratic money sink

>Elon Musk is insignificant compared to that,

He writes, in a thread where the UN asks Elon for more money

>egomaniac entrepreneur"

Jealousy is such a pathethic feeling - Tolstoy

>Does it occurs to you that some problems can't be solved but only mitigated ?

Wrong again, world hunger can and will be solved, but not by the UN.

> it's like saying covid lockdowns

No proven effect to date

Amazing you managed to squeeze this many errors into one post.

>The UN have done more to the world than Musk or any other single individual will ever do

What has the UN done beside spending money ineffectively? Musk, and other does and practicioners as opposed to bureaucrats, has done far more for mankind than the UN.

>What do you imagine ? The UN work for 15 years, solve all of the world problems and retire ?

I would imagine that they would be more proffessional than claiming they could solve world hunger with 6 billion extra in a world of trillions for charity.

[lm28469]

> like we wouldnt have intercommunication without such a bureaucratic money sink

I talk facts you talks hypothetical non existent scenarios, but go ahead and explain why ~200 countries are in a 80 years old organisation if alternatives are so good. It's like saying a company can function without any managers or meetings, sure you'll still have communication but nothing as serious/organised/efficient

> What has the UN done beside spending money ineffectively?

Open an history book, there have been hundreds of missions, if you put a bit of good faith in it it really isn't that hard

> world hunger can and will be solved, but not by the UN.

By who then ? Musk ? Bezos ? Some hypothetical person/organization that only exists in your mind and that might make it happen at some point in an equally hypothetical future ?

> Jealousy is such a pathethic feeling - Tolstoy

How's that an argument ? The dude works 95% of his awake time, can't even take care of his own kids, it's the rich guy I'm the least jealous of, and on top of that I absolutely disagree with his ideas.

> He writes, in a thread where the UN asks Elon for more money

? It was a PR stunt from Musk, like 90% of what he does, if you can't see through his bullshit I feel sad for you, jealousy is bad but worshipping people like him is equally dumb.

By the way The UN <> Musk discussion didn't go the way you're trying to portray it. The UN never asked Musk anything and never talked about ending world hunger for 6B, on top of that Musk bailed out of the discussion, so really there is nothing going his way on this topic, at least get your basic facts straight

https://mashable.com/article/elon-musk-solve-world-hunger

https://twitter.com/WFPChief/status/1454883966071230472

[newsclues]

Have you considered solving problems is hard and ends the gravy train, and if you get an opportunity to personally benefit, most people given the chance take the easy personal profits rather than to go down fighting the system?

[lm28469]

Of course it is hard and of course people will take personal profit, it's the human natures. What's your point ? You can apply the same thing to the US government or the EU institutions, what's your alternative ?

[Joeboy]

> "solve world hunger"

I think the idea WFP promised to "solve world hunger" for $6bn originated with Musk or his fans, not with WFP. WFP's original claim was that they'd be able to prevent 42 million people from starving (a much more achievable goal). I'm struggling to find the original interview rather than dramatized reports of it, though.

Disclosure: I've done contract work for WFP.

[s-lambert]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1454808104256737289

That's the original tweet where Elon Musk first appeared in the conversation, as you can see the article he's replying to is where the misinformation comes in. Basically the WFP said "we can stop 42m starving for a year with $6b, which isn't a lot for someone like Elon Musk" -> CNN Business reports it as solving world hunger in general -> Elon Musk says he'll give them $6b if they openly show how they can solve world hunger. Which they obviously never claimed they could do, so when they eventually replied about how the $6b would be spent it was just ignored because it didn't solve world hunger, just temporary starvation.

[Terry_Roll]

Charity highlights taxation doesnt work.

[zirobi]

They were incredibly disingenuous about the Elon Musk thing.

He said he'd sell $6bn of Tesla stock and donate it if they could provide an open source plan to completely solve world hunger.

They said they'd written a private plan to reduce world hunger then criticised him for not making the donation.

Whatever you think of Elon, I don't think he acted in bad faith here.

[notahacker]

No, Elon responded saying that if they could describe exactly how world hunger could be solved "on this Twitter thread" he would donate $6bn. Nothing to do with "open source", everything to do with making the request undeliverable (UN staff did of course tweet links to already-too-long-for-Twitter UN documents at him)

[raspberry1337]

Considering the "plan" is a table with a list of countries and corresponding numbers that could easily fit on one image (who could have known it was this easy!), its actually very possible to fit into a twitter thread: https://www.wfp.org/stories/wfps-plan-support-42-million-peo...

In fact, a high schooler could have done the same job of multiplying x_starving_ppl_in_country * y_cost_of_food_one_year_per_person, so its quite suprising that it took them all this time to counter with their genius, open source plan

[2000UltraDeluxe]

Definitely not. Musk did not ask for anything outrageous in return for the money. It was a PR disaster from the UN's point of view. Perhaps their perception of the risk of calling Elon Musk out like that was broken?

[ben_w]

While I was less than impressed by what I saw, I think calling it “a PR disaster” overstates the impact. I observed people reading into both parties what I already know they wanted to believe about each of Musk and the UN.

[2000UltraDeluxe]

Don't get me wrong; I normally don't like Musk's antics. However, we _know_ we can't end world hunger with 6 billion USD. At best, we can solve some urgent crisis, but an actual long-term solution requires more than billionaires flinging money at the problem.

Beasley knew this when he opened his mouth.