[zentr1c]

A Berlin News paper reports of the public inquiry of firefighters and emergency personnel to investigate the root cause of a rise in different "heart issue calls" of 27-31% in 2021 (40k calls) compared to 2018/2019.

In german: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/berlin-feuerwehr-herzpr...

They argue to change from mandatory vaccination to optional vaccination for their profession.

Evolution will tell what the right choice was. I am having popcorn while watching the extremists battle each others position.

[linkgoron]

Maybe it has something to do with a new virus going around, there was also an increase in 2020... There's a reason why they're comparing 2021 to 2018/2019 and not to 2020.

[lbj]

Correlation between rollouts and virus-infections respectively, show that the mRNA vaccine is almost twice as likely to cause a cardiovascular event. So Covid is indeed dangerous, but not quite as dangerous as the vaccine it seems.

[WithinReason]

The risk-benefit calculation is strongly age dependent. For old people there's no question about the benefit of the vaccines. For healthy children it's close.

[lbj]

It's very, very, very far from close. The most recent study from Christine Stabell out of Copenhagen showed that even if you're in the age group where the vaccine cuts covid mortality in half, you're overall 7% more likely to die by taking the vaccine. We need to get back to the drawing board on this one.

[distrohopper]

very common fallacy: absolute vs relative risk. kids have a miniscule risk of dying from covid (0.01%?) therefore reducing this already very very small risk isn't doing much at all. Of course kids do not require an experimental vaccine for a not at all very lethal viral infection.

[usrn]

You're not even guaranteed to get infected (I still haven't been.) So you need to apply that prior as well.

[maxerickson]

She appears to be a crank pushing a "live vaccines are magic" theory.

[water-your-self]

Covid has killed hundreds of thousands of people. Your claim is not based on reality.

[ajsnigrutin]

This very much depends on the age groups... For people younger than 40, covid still killed less people than traffic accidents, overdoses, suicides etc. in my country. In the 85yo+ group, the story is a bit different.

Interestingly enough, most of the covid restrictions affected the young the most, while the old were mostly unaffected (tehnically they were all affected the same, but most old people are at home and in beds when curfews started).

[nicoburns]

> less people than traffic accidents, overdoses, suicides

Unless it's much less that doesn't mean much given that those are usually the largest killers of young people.

[ajsnigrutin]

Well yeah, but you have to put things in perspective... we took away basic human rights (movement, assembly, relatively even speech), to save less people than if we banned driving for <40yo. Even with the vaccines, and the passive forcing of vaccinations (eg. limiting stuff you can do unless vaccinated or tested daily), most of the services where you needed the vaccine/test were used by the young people (shopping malls, cinemas, etc.), and not old people (who stereotipically just go to normal stores, pharmacy and a doctor).

Just the number of extra suicides due to curfews was probably higher than the death rates in those age groups.

In comparison, in total (so all age groups, including the 85yo+), we had more cigarette related deaths in those two years than of covid, and we still sell cigarettes pretty much everywhere.

[lbj]

In Denmark at least, through all of 2020 we had 0.0% increase in mortality. 2 weeks after we started vaccinating that number climbed to 12.6%, so we might find that the vaccines have killed even more people.

Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease.

[nicoburns]

> Certainly if you did the deceptive deed of tracking "dead with vaccine" like we do for the disease.

Where are they not tracking "dead with covid" separately from "dead from covid"? Here in the UK we have very clearly recorded separate numbers for these (the "dead from" number were ~66% the "dead with" numbers until recently with the rise of Omicron meaning that far more people have covid and far few people are dying from it).

[lbj]

In Denmark we have only tracked "dead with" and then mid 2021 we had a large study to figure out the actual number of dead, which turned out to be about 120 people.

[Narkov]

Correlation != causation.

[cas14655]

Hundreds of thousands died with a positive PCR test, yes. But then everyone who died had one taken. Certainly, a number of those died because because of this particular infection but the average COVID death was a very old person who had two or more preexisting conditions.

So the real question is: how many have died who would not have died of the flu or RSV or Andenovirus or Beta-coronavirus or any of the other innumerable causes of respiratory infections?

Not to mention, this has nothing to do with people younger than 40 or even younger than 60.

[bonzini]

There is data on excess mortality and the answer is, a lot. This is also why the with/from covid debate is pointless. If 100.000 people have died more than they would usually die, then no matter if they died due to covid or their condition was aggravated by it, that's 100.000 more people dying than in a year without covid.

[cas14655]

Well except that a lot of countries didn't have any unusual excess mortality in 2020. And anyway how do you separate the deaths caused by the measures from the deaths caused by COVID?

Such as

Discharging hospital patients into care homes:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/04/28/the-covid-care-home...

"The practice of discharging untested patients from hospitals to care homes remained in force until 15 April 2020."

Killing people with ventilators:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-ventil...

"Bergmann’s case illustrates a shift on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic, as doctors rethink when and how to use mechanical ventilators to treat severe sufferers of the disease - and in some cases whether to use them at all. While initially doctors packed intensive care units with intubated patients, now many are exploring other options.

[stefan_]

Yeah, but death is not a cardiovascular event you know - these people just suffocated.

[cas14655]

TFA specifically answers this question.

> [..] increased CA incidence was not observed among the 16–39 age group in 2020

[KarlKemp]

The rise started with 15 % in 2020. More or less 0 % were vaccinated at the end of that year.

In 2021 incidences rose another 10 % or so. To ascribe this rise to vaccinations and just shrug at the year before is... creative.

FWIW something that would seem to fit almost perfectly is infections, which were about twice as high in 2021 compared to 2020.

Also: this is an association of "vaccine-critical" firemen asking these questions, and the data is from 911 calls, which are not diagnoses. They are also trending towards being more specific in their classification scheme because they now have specific protocols and equipment for some indications, such as strokes.

[WithinReason]

30% is well within the placebo effect, there needs to be something more solid before I get worried.