[suifbwish]

Before this gets sensationalized more than it has, let’s consider that cognitive ability also plays a heavy roll in learning to play music. There may be some net synergistic effect music playing has on other cognitive function but the brain is also effected heavily when listening to music. I suspect there is not a link between musical training and cognitive abilities but they are the result of having a brain that can function well in whatever it does.

[cshimmin]

This is noted in the article, "A direct causal link between musical training and general cognitive faculties, however, seems unlikely."

The point of the article is that they've found a specific neurological relationship between two types of working memory:

"The results show that if musical training influences visual working memory, then it does so via the “detour” of musical working memory. In other words, by way of its primary benefits for musical working memory, musical training could have a positive effect on visual working memory as well."

[alimov]

Glad I saw this comment before checking out my cart full of guitars, drums, pianos, and a harmonica. Joking aside, would it be a stretch to say that learning to play an instrument well also grows confidence and develops a level of perseverance? Being bad at playing an instrument can be pretty discouraging, until one day you start to get the hang of it, giving more confidence to continue practicing and learning. Maybe that perseverance* bleeds over into other areas.

[bityard]

If you've ever fell in love with a song, or an artist, or totally jammed out to some track in a manner that would be embarrassing had you been observed, or if you constantly walk around with a tune in your head, then yes, learning an instrument is a great idea. My guess is that anyone who appreciates music on a deep level is capable of playing it, if not artfully then at least competently.

It's also a matter of finding the right instrument for you, which could turn out to be a surprise.

I suspect I'm older than they typical HN demographic, but I made several attempts to learn piano over the years and was never able to stick with it. I also tried bass guitar and that was fun (and pretty easy!) but you only get so far without playing in a band which I never had the time for. Then I picked up my dad's accordion (of all things) and got to wondering what it would be like to learn to play a simple song on it.

That was two years ago and since then I haven't missed a single day of practice, learning, or playing for fun. Which surprises the hell out of me, because I'm the kind of person who bounces from hobby to hobby and project to project and rarely finishes anything. It's frankly amazing to have _something_ I can say I have worked on (and towards) every day for a long time. THAT inspires confidence and some sense of self-worth. (And I generally need all of that I can get!)

Sometimes it's frustrating to get "stuck" on a difficult piece or hand movement that's new to me, but I always have to remind myself that I've been stuck before and that I'll eventually get it right with enough repetition, even if it takes weeks. The joy felt when I finally _do_ get it right is so intense that it probably ranks up there with some of the best drugs, minus the considerable negative consequences.

[gatonegro]

This got me thinking. When I was young I took some guitar lessons, but the instrument never _clicked_ for me. Now I have a (very basic) Yamaha keyboard, which I thought I would learn to play "at some point". It's been years since I last touched it.

> If you've ever fell in love with a song, or an artist, or totally jammed out to some track in a manner that would be embarrassing had you been observed, or if you constantly walk around with a tune in your head, then yes, learning an instrument is a great idea.

That is very much how I am. I almost feel restless if I'm not listening to music, I wake up with specific songs in my head almost daily; I have a decades-old music collection with all sorts of stuff, from the most commercial pop imaginable to obscure metal bands, or bizarre experimental soundscapes that some people wouldn't even consider "music". Music is one of the constants in my life, and one of the few things that are guaranteed to bring me joy, or peace, or _something_.

> [...] because I'm the kind of person who bounces from hobby to hobby and project to project and rarely finishes anything.

Also sounds like me, 100%. Now I'm wondering if there's an instrument out there that I would be able to stick to. Goodness knows I could use something to keep my brain somewhat in line these days.

[markvdb]

Pro guitar teacher here. I recognise some things in what you say that leads me to speculate you might benefit from an accessible wind instrument. The saxophone might be something for you.

Some reasons:

- Wind instruments are fairly physical to play. That can be rewarding/refreshing after a day of playing in the geek world. As an aside, this makes them great for the many people with ADHD/ADD too!

- Most wind instruments are monophonic. The complexity of an accompanying/polyphonic instrument is its own can of worms...

- In many parts of the world, especially the western world, it's relatively easy to find a larger ensemble fairly quickly. The group can be a real anchor point.

[jacquesm]

Seconded, ex-sax player (long story short: lung damage from long ago caused me to have to give it up), the sax is an extremely rewarding instrument. Try a tenor and an alto and figure out which one you like the timbre of best, and stay away from instruments that are too cheap, better a half decent second hand one than a crappy new one. Start off with a #2 reed if you've never played a wind instrument before and figure out if that's good for you or if you want it heavier or lighter.

Don't get discouraged if you run out of wind quickly in the beginning, that will build up fast, and don't overdo it with practice until you've built up some lip strength or you'll end up with claret all over your nice reeds.

[gatonegro]

Thanks, I honestly had never considered wind instruments. My only experience with a wind instrument was playing one of those cheap plastic recorders in elementary school.

That bit about them being good with people with ADHD reminded me of a friend I had in university. She had ADHD, and had been playing the saxophone since she was 14 or 15, and said that she found it very relaxing.

I keep coming back to this idea of learning an instrument every year or so, and the last time I thought about it I was considering the violin. I absolutely love the sound of it. But I might have to give this some thought, because apparently I've just been ignoring an entire family of instruments.

[lioeters]

You might find drums and percussion instruments to your liking. I had a good friend who likely had ADHD, or something like it, with over-active mind, constantly shifting attention/focus, expressed in his manner of speech and fidgeting (always jumping legs up and down). He was a drummer, and it was very noticeable that when he played drums, his mind could stay focused for hours, and even his fidgeting stopped. It was like his nervous energy would get channelled out of his body into the music.

[deskamess]

Thanks for the comment. I just posted asking about ADHD. What wind instrument(s) do you recommend for ADHD? Would polyphonic instruments pose a problem for someone with ADHD?

[markvdb]

The saxophone is supposed to be one of the easier ones to get a musical result out of. It is also fairly physical.

Polyphonic instruments posing a problem with ADHD is not an absolute rule, but I've seen more than a few people, especially at younger age, benefit immensely from a change from piano or guitar to the saxophone specifically.

The reasons could be many. Less reading while still struggling with technicalities, more deterministic fingering, less going on are just a few.

[sogen]

Any other recommendations of Wind instruments?

[bityard]

I'm 100% certain that there's an instrument out there for you. Try a few things out, even if they look and sound like toys. Cheap instruments abound but even if you splurge on something expensive, most music instruments keep their value well enough to break even if you decide to sell them in a few years. (As long as you don't buy brand new.)

One thing that _probably_ helped me stick with accordion is finding a role model early on. He's on YouTube and plays the instrument very well and is super friendly and enthusiastic. He never says, "this is the only way to learn X," like a lot of music teachers do. His philosophy is, "I'll show you some techniques that worked for me, give them a try and see if they work for you." I figure I can call myself successful if I'm only ever as half as good as him, in terms of both musical ability and his general outlook on life.

The other thing is, first and foremost, play for fun! Yeah, it's a slog to get through some of the theory and repetition in the beginning but if you get burned out, find something more engaging to do for a while (e.g. mimicking a catchy pop song) and then come back to the theory later, knowing that grokking it will help you play cool stuff later.

[gatonegro]

There are some musicians on YouTube that I watch regularly, and I remember finding a piano teacher specifically, who had a full playlist of piano lessons for beginners. His style was along the lines of what you describe: nothing strict or super rigid, and he showed a lot of practical examples and applications of the theory to keep things interesting.

> The other thing is, first and foremost, play for fun! Yeah, it's a slog to get through some of the theory and repetition in the beginning [...]

That's what I struggled with when I was attempting to learn. I felt like it required a bigger time investment than I could justify to myself, and with the slow progress I kind of just let it fall to the side. Which is weird, because I usually have no trouble pushing through learning a new skill if it's something I enjoy.

I'll definitely have to give it another shot, since I already have the instrument here. Trying out different instruments to see if one of them clicks also sounds like good advice, so thank you for that!

[mariushn]

What are the online resources for accordion that you like? You mentioned an YouTube author. Thanks!

[jacquesm]

> Now I have a (very basic) Yamaha keyboard, which I thought I would learn to play "at some point". It's been years since I last touched it.

If you have a free moment and you have your keyboard hooked up to the computer use Chrome and give pianojacq.com a try, let me know if I can help somehow.

[gatonegro]

Unfortunately I don't have a MIDI interface to plug it into the PC, but it's something I had considered buying before. Looks like there are some fairly cheap options available. I'll bookmark the site and see if I can get it done in the very near future. Thanks!

[jacquesm]

Most synths and keyboards have MIDI over USB nowadays.

[jacquesm]

Hah! Great you found your 'match'. Trying my hand at the piano for the third time in my life and having a ton of fun with it but I know I still suck and probably will for a long time to come. That moment you talk about hasn't arrived yet, it still requires a lot of thinking rather than that it is playing. I remember clearly the changeover moment on the sax when I could simply play what I wanted rather than to have to study each song from the beginning to find the right notes. And I can't wait to reach that level on the piano but piano is a lot harder than sax on account of the polyphony and I suspect at some level playing a monophonic instrument for a long time doesn't really help when you want to play piano, all I hear in my head is the 'lead'.

[bityard]

You're the pianojacq.com guy, right? I love the idea of the site and wish there was a way to use it with my accordion. I've been meaning to hook up my MIDI keyboard and give it a proper try. Although I play pretty much only by ear, being able to read sheet music well enough to use as a reference or guide would be a good tool to have in my belt someday.

I'm still early in my journey but from what I can tell, the key to learning piano/accordion is practicing scales and chords more or less relentlessly _before_ trying to play anything more complex than Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. Once you get the hang of them, and spend a lot of time playing around with them in various combinations, finding the melody of any given song by ear is quite often trivial.

And for what it's worth, the piano can be a monophonic instrument too. :) On the accordion, I'm still somewhat inexperienced so I generally only play one note at a time on the piano side. Which I can get away with and still sound decent because the bass side of the instrument is far easier to play and sound good on than the piano side. Put together, they sound passable even if you barely know what you're doing (like me!).

[jacquesm]

Hehe, I'd much rather be known as 'the pianojacq.com guy' than 'the webcam guy' :) Thank you for making my day.

Accordion is going to be very tricky. I've been toying around with synthesizing the notes/chords and then to compare the spectrum with the microphone input, that just might work for accordion as well though those tines tend to have lots of harmonics that may make that harder than it seems. I haven't gotten this to work for piano yet, the idea is to have a 'virtual midi' device that just listens to the microphone and turns everything it hears into note on/off pairs. That way you could use the site with non-midi instruments.

Agreed on sheetmusic reading skills being useful. For accordion jazz lead sheets might be useful as well.

> the key to learning piano/accordion is practicing scales and chords more or less relentlessly _before_ trying to play anything more complex than Twinkle Twinkle Little Star

Yes... it is also stupendously boring which I think is why a lot of people get turned off from practicing. There has to be some way to make this fun.

> Once you get the hang of them, and spend a lot of time playing around with them in various combinations, finding the melody of any given song by ear is quite often trivial.

Picking out the lead is trivial, picking out all of the chords is not (at least, not for me!).

> And for what it's worth, the piano can be a monophonic instrument too. :)

That's very true :)

> On the accordion, I'm still somewhat inexperienced so I generally only play one note at a time on the piano side. Which I can get away with and still sound decent because the bass side of the instrument is far easier to play and sound good on than the piano side. Put together, they sound passable even if you barely know what you're doing (like me!).

My dad was very good at the accordion, he could play both the clavier one and the 'button' style (chromatic) one. He's long dead so I can't ask him for any tips.

[alimov]

Thanks for sharing that, and I totally agree that the joy felt can be immense!

[gfody]

learning anything exercises your learning abilities and they get stronger. if we ever truly understand "learning ability" it's bound to include things like confidence and perseverance among other things. I feel like this basic intuition is behind every "links to cognitive abilities" study I've ever seen, even the recent one about daily drinkers (who probably just don't exercise their minds as much)

[alimov]

> I feel like this basic intuition is behind every "links to cognitive abilities" study I've ever seen

I’ve had this impression as well

[ushakov]

most people who start learning an instrument quit

not quitting alone will eventually make you better than most who tried and quit

speaking of personal experience

[jacquesm]

This is an excellent point. Perseverance is the key to most achievements unless you are one of those very lucky people that are naturally gifted and able to do something with only a very small fraction of the practice of the 'regulars'. Even then that isn't a guarantee because you still need motivation.

[antihipocrat]

Are there any real examples of these naturally gifted people? For example, someone who picked up an instrument and could play at a professional level within days without ever having touched an instrument before?

We hear stories of kid prodigies, but are we forgetting that kids have a lot of free time to practice if they focus their efforts?

[jacquesm]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tori_Amos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinu_Lipatti

And many, many others besides. The musical child prodigy is a well documented phenomenon and even though 'a lot of free time to practice' is a common theme lots of people with a lot of free time to practice will never even get close to that level. Compare to math prodigies, and other ways in which some people appear to stand out from the crowd.

Of course then you can drag in all kinds of circumstantial evidence that amount to a 'no true prodigy' version of the one about that dude from Scotland but I think the evidence is solid enough to show that there is something there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_music_prodigies

FWIW I also know plenty of the opposite: people that have worked really hard their whole life long to master an instrument and who will never be at the level of one of these gifted children. They play beautifully and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them but they are not under any illusion that it came hard to them when it seems to come so incredibly easy to some others. Outliers do happen.

[alimov]

Yeah, the perseverance “muscle” must be trained

[whiddershins]

After a couple of years of learning Tai chi, my hand independence on piano altered dramatically.

Hard to call it a coincidence. I think mind-body training can and does change cognitive ability, it’s almost a given.

If we doubt this, it’s more likely our ways of measuring are goofed up.

[tragictrash]

It may be hard to call it coincidence for you, but to everyone else thats a sample size of 1.

[blastro]

Count it as N=2, my anecdote aligns with this one. :)

[redmen]

It's all about the feedback loops between the brain, instrument and fingers.

Musical training is an amazingly fast way to shape your brain if you know what you are doing. It's one of the few engaging activities that offer that quick feedback and covers so many areas of the brain.

You can find hundreds of studies linking music and cognitive ability.

[noTooMooch]

There is an observable difference in brain activity between playing an instrument and actively listening: https://youtu.be/R0JKCYZ8hng

The activity of playing is unlike other skills based learning, including other arts. All this is in the video.

It’s the intersection of applying ephemeral knowledge (music theory, intuition for what sounds good) and active muscle memory building.

Personally, since picking up guitar and piano during lockdown, I’ve definitely noticed I’m faster at pattern recognition, more readily see simpler solutions to logic problems, and can find focus and flow with less effort. I did play saxophone from 5th grade on, but quit after HS; I was playing music before that too. The years in between just feel colorless and uninspired.

Will it make one Einstein? No. But it definitely brings a cognitive perspective, sense of self awareness and agency, nuanced inner monologue, that’s missing in its absence.

I don’t get uptight about proper music theory and all that. I just pluck my way into patterns that sound cool to me, build fluency playing them. It’s more like deep work than desire to succeed; I’ve tried meditating, yoga, etc, over years and nothing brings inner peace and sense of self like playing music.

But you know; ymmv

[RobertRoberts]

It could also be argued that music training is common and fairly consistent (results/goal wise) and therefore easy to measure. And it may be found that _any_ kind of very organized training over time provides the same sort of benefits, not just music specifically.

[user3939382]

Reading your comment I remembered a story I heard about Jimmy Reed. Who knows if it's true, but the story was that he wasn't sharp enough to remember the words to his own songs, and his wife had to stand behind him on stage and whisper to him to remind him. Hell of a blues player though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9xXchxodYg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Reed

[bambax]

McCartney says in an interview about the early days of the Beatles that they used to compose and rehearse new songs in hotel rooms with no recording device or paper, and the goal was to be able to play the new songs the day after.

He says (quoting from memory): "if we couldn't remember our own songs how could we expect audiences to remember them?"

If a song is hard to remember it may have a hard time becoming a hit.

[Melatonic]

He could also be someone like me where it is just very difficult to separate the voice and words of a singer from the instruments. If I listen to a song and do not actively try to decipher what the singer is saying it becomes just another instrument.

[jessermeyer]

Nah, concert singers have teleprompts to remind them of the words. They never show the chords though. Curious divide.

[alimov]

If it’s true then they made some great music as a team

[throwaway6532]

Playing drums thickens the corpus collosum apparently: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/327279

[treeman79]

My cognitive ability started bouncing between near genius to hillbilly. (Medical issue)

Was learning an instrument at the time. Was going really well. Then on bad weeks twinkle twinkle was a foreign concept.

I had to wait for good weeks to make any progress.

[InitialBP]

Hillbilly doesn't mean stupid, generally just isolated and sometimes uneducated.

And I know plenty of them who play a banjo and a guitar exceptionally well.

[bennysomething]

http://www.tartansauthority.com/global-scots/us-scots-histor...

The term redneck has quite a funny (if you are from northern Ireland or scotland) origin. Maybe mildly interesting to everyone else :)

Though obviously it's lost that original meaning.

[luckydata]

hi Taravangian!

[treeman79]

His character is my entire world.

For a long time I would take a simple memory test online each day to see how I was doing. Results were drastic changes day to day.

I was trying to figure out what effect each of the dozens of medications doctors gave me we’re having.

A simple blood thinner stopped the non-sense.

[luckydata]

I'm glad you figured it out and also glad you got the reference. That book helped me think through so many of my absurd internalized able-isms and forced me to re-evaluate how I look at myself and others in the context of mental health

[sdiupIGPWEfh]

Fascinating. Are you comfortable sharing anything further about the condition? Any particular blood thinner?

[treeman79]

Genetic Factor 5 Leiden. I clot like crazy. A really bad chemical exposure triggered gene to go crazy. So tons of micro strokes. (TIA) doctors were constantly dismissing, as if it was strokes then I would certainly be dead already.

All blood thinners help with symptoms. Even Asprin helps some.

The main ones. Eliquis and Xarelto both 100% fixed cognitive issue. Side effects are rough. But that’s a separate issue.

[luckydata]

sounds very similar to what some people with COVID-19 side effects experience. Don't envy you at all, good luck in your recovery.

[elliotbnvl]

I will not allow this to become an underrated comment.

[kinleyd]

Why? I'm interested to know.

[treeman79]

He has a magic power that changes his intelligence each day. Mostly Normal. Occasionally stupid or smart. Very rarely it would go to absurd extreme. Imagine waking up and before breakfast you solved unified theory of physics. Then got to work on something that might actually be hard.

Part of the Storm-light archive. An awesome inspirational epic fantasy series. One that helped me during the dark days of recovery.