[windowsrookie]

This just shows people will complain no matter what. Apple charges $49 to replace an iPhone 8 battery. You don't have to physically wait at the store for "hours", you can drop it off and pick it up later. Or you can mail it to Apple and they mail it back in 3-5 business days.

https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/service/battery-powe...

Name any other phone manufacturer that offers a better service.

[AussieWog93]

>Name any other phone manufacturer that offers a better service.

Pretty much all of them back in 2013. You'd just buy a new battery, peel off the back of the shell and plop it in. Didn't need to live in a country with proper manufacturer support, didn't need to go without a phone for a week while they fixed it, just swap 'n' go.

[ed25519FUUU]

Are any new smart phones from a major manufacturer like this?

[jamesmunns]

Fairphone’s entire line

[KerrAvon]

“major”

[stodor89]

Samsung Galaxy Xcover

[opan]

PinePhone

[munk-a]

Just because everyone else is more terrible doesn't mean Apple still isn't terrible.

It's a design decision to use proprietary batteries that are difficult to change by consumers and can't be easily manufactured by third parties. Batteries aren't expensive enough to warrant that kind of service charge.

[TameAntelope]

The point is that's not terrible, it's actually pretty good, considering all of the work they do to optimize every square millimeter in their phones.

[jader201]

I think this is the root issue many people have been complaining about for years: Apple’s obsession with “smaller”.

Many people would be happy with a larger phone, if it meant you could access it a little easier to repair it — or replace the battery, which most people wouldn’t consider a “repair” — yourself.

[windowsrookie]

Apple has made every new iphone and MacBook pro larger than the last generation to fit larger batteries.

"Many people would be happy with a larger phone, if it meant you could access it a little easier to repair it — or replace the battery, which most people wouldn’t consider a “repair” — yourself."

Apple did just that, and you're still not happy. They made the new iphones larger with a bigger battery. They now sell you the parts directly so you can repair it yourself.

They have made it as easy as they can to repair, while still having the device sealed and waterproof.

They literally have done what you are complaining about right now.

[mynameisvlad]

Would many people?

The HN crowd, sure, but the general population?

I don't think they consider repairability and battery replacement, let alone put it above the device "looking good".

[thebigman433]

> Many people would be happy with a larger phone, if it meant you could access it a little easier to repair it — or replace the battery, which most people wouldn’t consider a “repair” — yourself.

I am pretty curious to know if this is true or not. The general HN or r/hardware crowds would be for sure, but I dont actually think the general public would find it a compelling "feature". Most people would probably buy the replacement battery directly from Apple anyway, and if theyre going to do that, I imagine most will just have them replace it too. Plus degradation is fairly minimal now imo, especially within the ~3 year span the average person keeps their phone. I think most people would just prefer to upgrade at that point.

Not to say I dont support user replaceable batteries (I think all phones should have them), I just dont think it actually matters at all to the average user.

[KerrAvon]

You’re conflating MacBooks and phones. Size matters for things you put in your pocket and purse, less so for something like a serious pro laptop.

[suetoniusp91]

Why are you stumping for less control over things you "own". Do you truly believe that the inability to access the phones battery is related to phone size?

Would it have to become a foot long clown phone to have a removable battery?

[halostatue]

It is completely related to being watertight, and that matters to me far more than user replaceable.

[throwaway48375]

My old phones with removable batteries fit in my pocket just fine.

[windowsrookie]

Your old phone doesn't get nearly the battery life of a new one. The iPhone 13 Pro Max will stream video for 25 hours on battery.

https://www.apple.com/iphone-13-pro/specs/

Also the new iphones are waterproof, your old phone was not.

[tinus_hn]

Clearly not so many that it’s profitable to build that kind of phone. The reality is that a phone like the Fairphone, which is a fine phone, does show that down that road you end up with a pretty expensive phone that looks bulky, is not waterproof (even though it’s a great achievement it is water resistant) and uses suboptimal components.

[spaceisballer]

Yeah when did same day service become terrible? Everyone these days wants the world instead of a minor inconvenience. And is mad if they have any inconvenience. My Nintendo Joy Cons started having drift and between shipping them and getting them back it’s just about a week. Not bad by my standards. But seeing people commenting online it’s like Nintendo is asking for their first and second born child waiting that long.

[raxxorraxor]

My phone isn't larger than an iPhone and I can change the battery myself. A bad excuse remains a bad excuse.

[windowsrookie]

The iPhone 13 Pro Max can stream video for 25 hours. How long can your phone?

Waterproofing is more important to me than a removable battery. Apple will replace the battery for $69 when it is time. And they will still be providing software updates for it in 6 years.

How much is a replacement battery for your non-waterproof phone? How long will it receive software updates? Will you buy a new one when they stop updating it?

[TameAntelope]

I struggle to understand how you think your personal preferences represent the market as a whole...

[simonh]

How's it's water resistance?

[raxxorraxor]

It doesn't die in the rain or from coffee or sugary drinks. Also not from dropping it into snow. I have not tested it otherwise. I would estimate IPX4.

[travisgriggs]

> It's a design decision to use proprietary batteries that are difficult to change by consumers and can't be easily manufactured by third parties.

I’m honestly curious… has this ever been proven? It’s decent -and common assertion/speculation.

But I’m curious if there has ever been a high level ex engineer, or court document, or something that just states clearly “yes, a primary/convincing motivation to move to internal batteries was because of increased lock in revenue”?

[KerrAvon]

No, it has not. And it probably is false. It is unquestionably simpler to design devices at Apple’s scale if the battery is hard to replace. Whether you think it’s worth the trade off is a different question.

[greedo]

Aren't iFixit's batteries third party?

[user_7832]

> Name any other phone manufacturer that offers a better service.

If the "best" company still activity tries to screw customers over (see: planned obsolescence and almost everything apple has done until now, Louis Rossman's YouTube channel etc), then I'm afraid the bar is part of the foundation, it's so underground.

That's not something to be proud of at all.

[windowsrookie]

Apple released an IOS update for the iPhone 6s last month. That's 7 years of software updates. A 2015 MacBook can still run the newest OS. A Mac Pro from 2013 can still run the newest OS. You can still buy a replacement battery from Apple for a 7 year old device.

Where is the planned obsolescence? Apple is supporting their devices longer than any other consumer tech company. How are they actively trying to "screw customers over"?

[simonh]

You can’t argue with these people. Almost double the software support period and average device service life of the nearest competitors still counts as ‘planned obsolescence’, yet none of those competitors get dinged for their device lifetimes. It’s complete dislocation from reality.

[user_7832]

Mate did you even read my comment before replying?

> yet none of those competitors get dinged for their device lifetimes. It’s complete dislocation from reality.

I literally said that if Apple is the best the rest (the "standard" or bar) is underground. To paraphrase/reiterate: I think other companies are doing an even shittier job.

> It’s complete dislocation from reality.

I must concur.

[simonh]

My point is even when they go to far greater lengths than the others, they’re still criticised (including by you) of actively reducing device lifetime. That is absurd. Vague references to a ‘bar’ without even mentioning their competitors even as a genetic group is hardly equivalent to targeted named criticism of the company.

[DSingularity]

Considering their full lifetime, it works out to basically you can own these devices for less than a dollar a day. I appreciate that I am not getting gauged by the manufacturer just so I can stay in the ecosystem. Doubt I would say the same about other companies.

[AussieWog93]

As another person here commented, just because Apple is less bad than other companies it doesn't mean they're not bad.

There's really no justification as to why I can install the latest version of Windows 10 on a computer from 2006 and everything works smoothly, but if I try to install Android 12 on a device from 2 years ago then everything turns to shit.

[paulmd]

> There's really no justification as to why I can install the latest version of Windows 10 on a computer from 2006 and everything works smoothly

Windows 10 isn't "the latest version" anymore, and they've dropped support for a ton of processors (actually, it's worse than that, they've intentionally broken support for a lot of processors).

Some have fTPM that can be manually enabled, and it may or may not work or cause issues (stuttering, etc) without BIOS patches and other stuff that the vendor may not provide for legacy hardware, so even there it's hit or miss, but stuff from the 2006 era doesn't have fTPM at all and you'll have to do the microsoft equivalent of hackintosh.

But yeah Android's support/device lifetime is egregiously bad, I'm not basing my OS on a custom build by some guy named xXxMark69xXx who posts on a web forum. Even Linux has official distributions that are expected to pretty much Just Work without modifications beyond installing some (audited, signed) driver packages, but the Android model means that it's simply not possible to "just install Lineage", you essentially must have someone customize it for each individual model.

Android phones also usually have terrible spare-parts availability, unless you want to buy a wish.com-tier battery that will have half of its advertised capacity out of the box, and pillow up before six months have passed. It simply is not possible to buy quality battery replacements outside of the OEM supply chains (I've pointed this out here on HN as a business opportunity every time the topic comes up) whether it's phone or laptops or anything else. And the OEM supply chains are just not there, despite every opportunity for vendors to "just use standardized parts" like people are saying.

At the end of the day I'm perfectly happy to just pay Apple 50 bucks so that a technician can put a new battery into my 4-year-old phone and I'll know it's OEM tier and that the waterproofing/etc will be done right and that they won't shatter the back and so on. Not the place I want to try and save 20 bucks in my life anymore.

[AussieWog93]

> It simply is not possible to buy quality battery replacements outside of the OEM supply chains (I've pointed this out here on HN as a business opportunity every time the topic comes up) whether it's phone or laptops or anything else.

I know this is an odd point of your comment to pick out, but just wanted to share this as I thought the way you did for almost a decade:

Cameron Sino are a really reliable aftermarket battery manufacturer. They're the source that iFixit use, and I've tried some of their products myself too. They make damn near everything, including niche SKUs with custom ICs, and the quality is comparable to OEM stuff (both in terms of initial capacity and longevity).

[paulmd]

Not odd at all, I am tacitly fishing with Cunningham's Law in hopes of someone indignantly giving me a good hookup for decent batteries ;)

Thanks, I'll keep them in mind! They might very well be the actual OEM for a lot of those products anyway, somebody has to be making the batteries and it's probably somewhere in China.

I mean, there's a few, especially in specific niches (Wasabi Power is good for camera batteries, etc) but like, if you just buy a "X device replacement battery" off amazon or ebay then you're gonna get something with half the advertised capacity. I replaced my PS3 controller batteries and cycled the batteries a few times with my Triton smart charger, and like, the replacements are still bigger than the originals (750mah vs 570) but they're not the 1500 mah they were advertised as. It's damn frustrating because I'd gladly pay another $10 or $20 a battery for a high-quality one instead of something that fails in 3 months...

[hollandheese]

Just because other companies are screwing over customers more doesn't mean Apple isn't behaving in a hostile manner to customers.

>A 2015 MacBook can still run the newest OS.

Big freaking deal, a 2003 Athlon 64 machine can still run modern Linux distros. Until Microsoft went scorched earth with Windows 11, computers from 2006 could still run the most recent version of Windows. Apple has the SHORTEST OS support window for desktops and laptops overall. My 2009 Macbook can run Windows 10 21H1 (2021) but can only run up to 10.11 (2015). All of 6 years of OS support from Apple, but 12 from Microsoft and 13 from Linux.

[windowsrookie]

Actually you can run the newest OS on your 2009 MacBook, its not official, but it is possible and runs OK. Same as running Windows 11 on older unsupported hardware.

https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/

I'm running OS 10.13 on a 2008 MacBook right now (officially supports 10.11). Using: http://dosdude1.com/software.html It runs great, beyond 10.13 the OS seems to run slower tho.

It's not necessary at this point, because every App I use still supports 10.11 (including VS code). But knowing I can get several more years out of this Machine is nice.

[hollandheese]

Yes, I know you can hack it on there. Just like you can hack Android 12 on a Samsung Galaxy S3. But that's not the point. The point is the official support for the device, which was only 6 years.

Also, I did use dosdude's software to hack 10.13 on my 2009 MacBook and it ran like crap and the touchpad driver was total crap.

[windowsrookie]

Microsoft has dropped support for 7th gen Intel processors. They were released in August of 2016, and sold well into 2017.

Apple is still supporting 2015 MacBooks with 4th gen processors.

Again, Apple is supporting their devices longer than anyone else.

Dosdude1's software runs great on this 2008 MacBook. It runs exactly like Apple made it. Touchpad is no different and all gestures work perfectly. Not sure what went wrong in your case.

[user_7832]

I replied to another comment here as well on a similar note - software is just one half of the picture, and needs proper hardware. Apple makes hardware that looks good in advertisements - even if it comes at the cost of consumer benefit (see: Apple's unbraided charging cable failure issue amongst others).

They are very happy to support your device... as long as their poorly designed hardware doesn't fail (specific example from Louis Rossman's video - at 48V power cable to the display next to the sensitive data lines.)

Apple know cares about customers as long as it doesn't hurt its PR, much like the vast majority of profit-driven companies.

[windowsrookie]

Applecare+ can now be extended "indefinitely" (we don't know yet how long, but likely around ~7 years). Cost varies from $35-150/year depending on the device. So you can now have your apple hardware covered under warranty for longer than any other manufacturer, along with having longer software support than any other manufacturer.

Applecare+ also includes two "accidental damage" incidents per year. So you can throw your 7 year old Macbook out a window or into the ocean twice a year and Apple will repair it.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/applecare-coverage-for-...

I am not an Apple die-hard fanboy. I personally used many Android devices, a Dell XPS 15, and a custom built PC until last year (switched to an iPhone 13 and M1 Air). But Apple is providing longer software and hardware support than any other company right now, and I really don't understand how you can still complain.

[Dylan16807]

It's a substantially different kind of 'warranty' coverage when you're paying a significant fraction of the device's value every year.

[paulmd]

Also, repairs still have a deductible. It's not "two free screen repairs a year", it's "up to two screen repairs at $29 a pop with a $150-200 up-front fee", vs $129 a pop for replacement screens (and newer models are more expensive). So if you need it once you're coming out equal, if you use it twice you come out ahead.

I looked at it when I bought my first iphone a couple years ago, it was my first "expensive" phone and it was stressful, but the math is solid, even if you use the service once you're only breaking even, and even then you're getting a repair on a phone that has likely depreciated substantially (yes, even apple) so it's a $150 repair on a $400 phone with a worn battery, etc. At some point even if it's not utterly destroyed, it financially just doesn't make sense to throw more money into it. And this is with me buying a relatively expensive high-capacity model that is "more expensive to total", just wouldn't make sense on a base-tier model unless you routinely manhandle them into an early grave.

Haven't done the math on newer models (mine was a couple gens old, got it as an apple refurb) but it does look better for premium ipad models. $200 for the warranty and $49 service fee, vs $700 (!) for replacing an ipad pro 12.1" screen. If you've got a premium 12.1" pro with a TB of storage, that's easily a $1500 device and would be worth repairing and certainly worth taking out the warranty beforehand.

I originally got my (base-model) iPad for $229 back in 2018, and the screen itself is $249 to replace, vs $80 for applecare+ and $49 for the deductible... so you are coming out WAY ahead if you actually need to use it. I cracked a corner of the screen (took it out of the case ONE TIME and of course I drop it...) and it's basically totaled, it's more than I originally paid for it and only $50 short of a new base-model iPad if you get them on sale.

[mynameisvlad]

It's still more than what's even available for the competitors.

It's easy to be pessimistic, but show me any phone manufacturer that offers extended support past 3 years. Hell, even computers hardly will come with more than that as an option.

[IfOnlyYouKnew]

I don't understand.. How are they not supporting their hardware when they willingly repair their hardware. In cases where they screw up, they tend to even have free replacement programs.

i have no idea about this cable issue, or who Louis Rossman is... I have a thunderbolt cable with data and power running from the display to the notebook. Is the data in danger? FWIW it's transmitting 6016 * 3384 = 20385144 pixels at, I believe, 24 bit color depth and 60H flawlessly.

But mostly I just don't get what this has to do with their service?

[kurupt213]

Microsoft supports hardware way longer than apple, and many more configurations

[dan-robertson]

The iPhone 8 was released in autumn 2017, 4.5 years ago. It still gets regular software updates for security and new features and the hardware performs well compared to newer smartphones (Apple chips have been loads better than other mobile chips for a long time so an Apple chip from a year or two ago is often bested only by the newer apple chips in metrics like single-threaded performance or power efficiency).

I think it is mostly silly to accuse apple of planned obsolescence when their hardware functions well (and retains its value) for much longer than the hardware produced by their competitors. It feels to me that paying for one phone 4.5 years ago, and $50 for a battery replacement (all lithium ion batteries degrade over time) that will extend its useful life is a pretty efficient use of money.

[user_7832]

The issue is that software is useless without proper hardware.

While their software support is admirable, their hardware philosophy, design and real-life practice (eg pricing a screen repair almost similar to a new phone) is anything but.

[IfOnlyYouKnew]

iPhone XR cost at launch: $849. Screen replacement: $199.

Also, as far as I can tell, screens have stopped breaking at some point? I used to reliably break the screen before the two-year replacement cycle was up. Except for the last two generations, which survived, and not for lack of dropping them.

[xvector]

I stopped reading when I saw "Apple" and "planned obsolescence" in the same sentence. The company is practically the poster child for long-lived products.

[skipnup]

Samsung has a repair bus that come to your home or workplace and fixes the battery or anything else workout you having to drive into the city to a store or not having access for multiple days. (At least in Germany)

[Rediscover]

Teracube?

https://myteracube.com/

They have an interesting flat-fee for repairs and a four-year warranty, plus official rooting instructions on their forum.

I'm using the Teracube One as my main mobile phone.

[sneak]

Looks like it comes with standard Google spyware Android, not a f/oss one with the spyware (Google Play Services) removed/optional.

It might be an interesting choice if it ran a better OS.