[dr_dshiv]

Why? If I run a store and I learn about my customer’s interests, why shouldn’t I use that to make better offers? I don’t know why people are so freaked out by data collection. I just can’t believe that for all the data I share, I still get such shitty ads.

[CaptainZapp]

Ok, you own a store. A customer enters your store and buys a widget. Since you're smart and want to know everything you record the sale and add it to your database.

Only that's not where it stops.

After the customer leaves the store one of you minions follows him to every other store he ever enters to record what he buys, or even looks at

That's why your analogy falls completely flat.

Nobody would complain if it only concerns your store and your sales. But people violently dislike you snooping on everything that your customer does.

Worse! He doesn't even have to be a customer of yours. You snoop anyway, even into his most private affairs.

[mellavora]

Worse! You report this information to government authorities, who monitor this and may decide at a future time that the things you were shopping for today mark you as a bad or suspicious person.

Worse! You also share this information with credit bureaus, meaning the data is available to potential employers. Thus limiting your job options.

Looked at a hookah once because you were curious? Sorry, no pot-heads in my company!

[dr_dshiv]

I don’t see the connection of this to the topic. Not trying to be obtuse. Are you saying it’s a slippery slope between targeted advertisements and 1984?

In my store analogy, I’m trying to make discourse on this topic less black and white. To recognize that data collection is not some inherent evil. And sure, to point out that a store that tries to peep in your bedroom window should be called to task.

[snapcaster]

But your store analogy is stacking the deck in favor of your point. As the people responding to you pointed out, it falls apart when you consider all the larger implications of pervasive data collection. Would you defend the Stasi with the same language? I dont know why you're _trying_ to make this point and gaslight the people who are rightfully very concerned about the concentration of power this data collection results in

[Dylan16807]

> that tries to peep in your bedroom window

That's not really the argument your opponent has.

It's that pervasive data collection, even if it's 'only' outside your house, is quite bad.

> I’m trying to make discourse on this topic less black and white.

Then you need to rethink your framing, because right now you're trying to split it into "store tracks transactions by itself and uses that data itself" and "tries to peep in your bedroom window".

Everyone else is talking about shades of gray too. But they're pointing out that 90% of the store-tracking shades have significant negative consequences.

[Nextgrid]

The problem is that the government can compel ad targeting providers (and anyone in the advertising/marketing/data brokering industries) to reveal data about someone.

Those industries have essentially built a worldwide spying system that would make the NSA jealous without them even having to pay a dime and capitalism guarantees those systems will keep being maintained forever.

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

This a strawman. We're not talking about your friendly neighbourhood corner store here. We're talking about large scale systems with billions of users, systems that contain and shape a lot of our public discourse. The way these platforms make money inherently affects our society and our democracy. "Helping your customer" is irrelevant here.

[dr_dshiv]

I thought this was a topic about Alexa (a voice UI) using your voice (actually, installed skills) to deliver more targeted ads. I don’t see the public discourse connection here?

[Nextgrid]

It's only a matter of time before Alexa will only read you the "right" kind of news as to remain advertiser-friendly. It already happens on mainstream social media, where beyond actual illegal content, plenty of legal content but that happens to be critical of the proverbial "establishment" gets demonetized, banned or even silently shadowbanned.

[dr_dshiv]

But that phenomenon isn’t specific to targeting, is it? That’s just run of the mill propaganda.

[vincnetas]

its one thing to have guest book in your store to gather feedback from your users, and totally another to follow your customers all the way back to their homes and listen what they talk about. main thing is customer explicit consent. one where customer fully understands what he consents to.

[dr_dshiv]

Ok, let’s take the in store analogy. Agree that following someone home to spy on them is wrong. But in store, if I see a person looking at some items on a shelf and start to tell them about related items, doesn’t that violate the need for explicit consent? Expecting “full understanding” is too high a bar, IMO. Implicit consent, public notice and opt out are sufficient. Otherwise you end up with GDPR cookie opt ins that only train people to indiscriminately push “accept” buttons.

[doctor_eval]

I don’t think anybody claims that you need consent to do the equivalent of displaying “other products you may like”. The customer entered the store willingly, and what you describe is quite literally the job of a shop assistant.

The need for consent would come if the assistant were to record the entire conversion you have with the customer, and send it to Facebook or Amazon in exchange for money.

[dr_dshiv]

I was responding to the claim about “main thing is customer explicit consent. one where customer fully understands what he consents to.” Maybe I misunderstood.

[mort96]

> I don't know why people are so freaked out by living in a surveillance system where every corporation tracks their every move for profit

You haven't read enough dystopic fiction.

[mukesh610]

Fiction isn't exactly a good argument

[mort96]

A lot of fiction isn't just about "look at this whacky world I invented". Especially dystopic fiction usually tries to tell us something about our own world and its potential future.

But the main point with my comment was to re-frame what was advocated, from their fantasy of "one small store owner doing the best for their customers" into "a surveillance system where every corporation tracks your every move for profit".

[mellavora]

Right, but perhaps the McCarthy era is?

Or the civil rights movement?

Or the labor movements?