[flacebo]

I had this realization in the last couple of weeks slowly, starting from a discussion about who thinks in which language in my friend group. I've tried to convince them how thoughts aren't in any language, but nobody agreed, which made me think. I found these threads later when trying to research it.

For me, thinking in words and sentences sounds like thoughs being weighed and slowed down. Seems very unnecessary. On the other hand, I did and always had the the issue of putting my thoughts into words properly. Like the translator is pretty bad and I always struggle and feel like most of the information is lost.

I think there might be some correlation between this and being introverted, socializing is exhausting for me because the translator is not well trained as I don't use it while thinking, and it has to run at 100%. I've talked with my better half about this and she said it's easy for her because the sentences are already there and it takes zero effort to say them, which aligns with my theory.

I do have a terrible "mind chatter" though, I'd rather describe it as white noise. Way too many thoughts going through at once, which makes it very hard to concentrate on anything. So even though not everyone is thinking in words and sentences, this issue can effect all of us.

[simonh]

>For me, thinking in words and sentences sounds like thoughs being weighed and slowed down.

I'm a very 'verbal' thinker, but not all thoughts and mental processes are verbalised by a long shot. In fact it's probably a small minority, but a very noticeable one so it sometimes seems like a dominant mode when on reflection it really isn't. Much of the time it's more like a post-hoc commentary.

I often think things through verbally when I'm working through a tricky problem or issue, but even then I'm not sure to what extent the verbalising is post-hoc construction. I suspect there's a kind of feedback loop in those cases where the mental model is essentially unconscious, it's output is processed to generate a verbalisation, that process imposes a kind of structure and grammatical formalisation of the idea or thought, and that informs further modification of the model.

I've often said, and head it said, that if you have a tricky problem it helps to find someone and explain the problem to them. Often by the time you've explained it, you've figured out the solution. Having to structure the problem in such a way that you can explain it is a kind of analytical discipline that helps think it through. For me verbalising internally is helpful in that way, but it's not the only way I think. If it were playing reaction sports that require some strategising and analysis of your opponent's moves would be impossible because it would be too slow.

[stephen_g]

That’s interesting, I basically always have a clearly English monologue going on, even while visually thinking about things or thinking about sounds or music at the same time. The monologue becomes more sparse and simple the harder I’m thinking in another way (sometimes just reducing to words of agreement or disagreement to the visualisation of something I’m designing or a route I’m planning). But then as soon as I stop doing that I just revert back to monologuing.

I know a little Spanish and a tiny bit of German and I can purposely think in those languages, but I’m way too limited in what I can express that it takes a lot of conscious effort. The really fun thing that I’m not sure is normal is that I can very easily switch my monologue to different accents which sound (as I perceive it in my mind) identical to real ones I’ve heard for long enough to replicate. I’m quite good at doing different accents in real life so I expect that’s linked.

[ascar]

The part about accents sounds interesting to me. I always believed I can't do accents because I absolutely can't fake/hear them in my head. I can even only speak my own accent with close family and switch to regular German with everyone else. I also can't hear/recall music from memory, so it's near impossible for me to sing freely, while singing along works fine.

I can imitate different voices in my head when reading a novel and I can't even comprehend how one would read and comprehend without hearing everything spoken in ones head. It's just impossible for me.

I do have a constant monologue though that is impossible to shut up. Even if I try to calm it or meditate I would think out loud "calm/meditate/don't think", so that doesn't work at all xD

I did start thinking in English at some point. Before that I would translate all English to German, think about it and translate my German thoughts to English, if I needed to say something. By now I just think in English when I'm in an English context. It feels entirely natural.

[ryukafalz]

> I can't even comprehend how one would read and comprehend without hearing everything spoken in ones head

For me it’s the inverse actually. I don’t normally hear what I’m reading in my head, I can consciously do so if I want, but more often than not that distracts me because I’m thinking about the words rather than the concepts.

The only time it’s helpful is when I need to focus on a particular word for some reason; for example, if I’m struggling to recall what it means, or if I’m programming and trying to trace where a specific variable is referenced. Keeping the sound in my mind can help in those cases.

[u2077]

> I ... always have an (...) English monologue going on (..) The monologue becomes more sparse and simple the harder I’m thinking.

This! I feel like I’ve been talking to myself (internally) my entire life, but some in this thread described their thoughts as relationships of topics and concepts, which I also experience.

[electriclizard]

> thinking in words and sentences sounds like thoughts being weighed and slowed down

This has been my experience as I've learned to stop thinking in words. I realized at one point that words are learned; which means that there was a point where you were thinking without them, before you learned language.

I've done a lot of work on myself with therapy and meditation and learned to think without words. And what I've noticed is that when I think with words, they occur AFTER what I'd call sensational thinking; thinking without words is a full-body sensational experience for me and not something that only occurs in a slice of the mind like a vapid calculation.

>mind chatter

A few times I've experienced acting without any chatter. A pure quietness. It's wonderful.

I've been working on myself to make this a permanent thing.

[pfisherman]

Have you ever spent a decent period of time (>3 months) being immersed in another language? When you do it becomes clear that there is a language component to your thoughts, even if you don’t think in words.

My personal experience is similar to GP. My thoughts are very non-linear a jumble of images, emotions, sensations, sounds, colors, and intuitions. Organization into anything resembling a coherent sentence takes conscious effort.

But there are words mixed into that jumble somewhere, and I experienced a tipping point during language immersion / acquisition where I realized those words were no longer in my native tongue. It was around the time I started dreaming in the other language.

[lijogdfljk]

> For me, thinking in words and sentences sounds like thoughs being weighed and slowed down. Seems very unnecessary. On the other hand, I did and always had the the issue of putting my thoughts into words properly. Like the translator is pretty bad and I always struggle and feel like most of the information is lost.

Fwiw, while i do imagine thinking in words is slower than non-words, i myself have an inner monologue and it is far from... structured when typically active while i'm thinking. It sounds much more like the mutterings of an insane person. Ie while i'm chewing on a problem the majority of my thoughts are without form - but sprinkled in between them are voiced words. Sometimes a run of words, sometimes a single word, often nothing at all.

Similarly while i think best when i talk out loud to myself, what i verbally express are structured quite similar to my inner voice ramblings. They are trains of thought weaving back and forth almost without meaning. Large gaps of jumps, usually cutting myself off mid sentence.

> I think there might be some correlation between this and being introverted, socializing is exhausting for me because the translator is not well trained as I don't use it while thinking, and it has to run at 100%. I've talked with my better half about this and she said it's easy for her because the sentences are already there and it takes zero effort to say them, which aligns with my theory.

I struggle immensely with socializing as well. Unsure if it's related, but i tend to talk _too_ much. It's like i always push the conversation, and i have to fight not to talk. That or i forget my points/etc. Despite talking heavily, i dislike most socialization. I often leave conversations wishing i had said nothing.

[mgdlbp]

I find that I'm able to deliberately structure my thoughts in what feels like a string of real English words without much difficulty, yet I have a very similar feeling of being slowed down when I attempt to speak those thoughts out loud in real time.

The extra effort required is strange, considering the research showing that internally vocalized thoughts are reflexively subvocalized by the associated muscles. The only difference between thinking and speaking should thus be the increase in amplitude and precision of muscle movement required to make the vocalization intelligible. Is that alone enough to so greatly impact the ability to think? Or could the brain be deceiving itself in whether its vocalized thoughts are in fact complete English words?

Perhaps there's something to be seen from the fact that I find myself automatically inserting filler words even when trying to dictate these raw thoughts to a recording. I'm fairly sure I don't use them in my internal thoughts, and whenever I use one when dictating those thoughts, it feels like my train of thought comes to a halt. Perhaps, when I need to take time to consider something abstract that cannot be vocalized, my internal vocalization is able to pause without me noticing, but audible speaking reflexively fills in the silence in a manner disruptive to thinking?

This all contrasts with my writing of this comment, where my typing is far slower and more measured than my thinking, such that I'm jumping between sentences to insert new thoughts related to something I've already written and delete what now feels unimportant. And the process of handwriting is again different, being even slower and very limited in the ability to modify what's already written. I gather, then, that these are all distinct "modes" of the brain putting thoughts into language, each with different levels of perceived difficulty, actual words per minute, and resulting quality/linguistic register.

Edit: clarity

[formerly_proven]

It seems to me like most "intrapersonal communication" is not fully formed, but latent. Because everything is filled in as you go there, it seems like sentences are formed at a crazy speed and with superb proficiency. Minor errors don't matter because nothing is vocalized and the underlying processes "know what is meant" regardless. A little bit as-if internal speech is just a handle to move thoughts around, and not the actual thought itself.

[jpeloquin]

Yeah, when I speak or write out my thoughts I often find they weren't as fully formed as they seemed while they were just in my head, and maybe shouldn't have counted as thoughts in the first place. This is one reason it's beneficial in a work context to keep a project journal or regularly discuss work with other people.

[the_only_law]

> yet I have a very similar feeling of being slowed down when I attempt to speak those thoughts out loud in real time

Yeah I sound like an idiot when I start talking because my brain will process thoughts much faster than I can speak them and it ends up with odd extended pauses while I catch up and such.

I don’t write particularly well either, often because I’m on a phone and my phone loves to make radical new words via autocorrect but at least I can read over a few times before posting.

[EricE]

I think most people experiencing that. And like anything, you can improve it with practice. One of the best training classes I took at work was a class on using a mind map to structure a presentation, then practice by recording myself giving it. Playing back the recording and watching it was eye opening. I always thought I was a bad public speaker because it felt like I a was inserting lots of pauses, “Um..” and other stuff like that. After watching the recording it turns out a lot of that filler stuff was in my head - I never really said it! Our brains are amazing; still learning how to live with mine after 50 years!

[blueprint]

> I do have a terrible "mind chatter" though, I'd rather describe it as white noise. Way too many thoughts going through at once, which makes it very hard to concentrate on anything.

It could be related to your dopamine regulation or to anything traumatizing which happened to you in the past that you haven't fully integrated yet. Out of curiosity does this seem like a possibility?

Suppose as you were growing up you and your feelings were always invalidated. You may have learned to try to repress them. But I hear that when we try to quiet our feelings they only get louder. The limbic system is said to want emotions. If you trained yourself to push down your feelings instead of e.g. inviting them with curiosity then they don't just disappear.. you may need to relate to them in an emotionally welcoming/safe state in order to resolve them. But it can be scary if you never felt safe feeling your own feelings, e.g. due to what may have been modeled for you by a parent.

[endofreach]

It has just been a few weeks ago that apparently it is unusual that i actively have to fight my thoughts to be able to talk or think thoroughly. Most times i am so busy fighting thoughts that i can only hear words. I „try to focus“ on what people want from me and i it even feels like that is what my mind is focused on. But at the same time i can feel how my brainpower is actively used… It is like white-noise to me, too, but much louder and by now i am used to it so i don‘t really hear anything.

I don‘t know why i wrote this, but your „mind-chatter“ and „white noise“ made me think here is a good place to jump in and see if anyone has anything to say to this… don‘t know… i am just exhausted…

[layer8]

> I did and always had the the issue of putting my thoughts into words properly

I’m the same in that respect, but I grew up bilangually, so I always wondered if that has caused my brain to think more independently of language than other people. On the other hand, I spend a lot of time mulling in my head what I will say/write to other people, which results in a lot of internal monologue.

[tooltower]

FWIW, I'm pretty introverted too, but my internal monologue is pretty active. So that's one data point that's the opposite of the correlation you suggest.

Not only that, my internal voice has become much quieter with age. And I have learned more and more extroverted behaviors during the same time.

[psyc]

The only time I ever think in words is when I’m specifically thinking about how I would say or write something, and when holding Socratic dialogues with myself. Otherwise it’s all pictures, usually 3D, and usually moving.

Oh, unless it’s musical. Then it’s music. But I can visualize that too.

[red75prime]

Interesting. What picture do you have for something like "I promised to meet my nephew I never met before next Tuesday at 3 Av/E 117 St I never visited before."?

When I shut down my internal monologue I have trouble thinking about things beyond routine procedures and memories.

[Jensson]

> I promised to meet my nephew I never met before next Tuesday at 3 Av/E 117 St I never visited before.

You don't work with that as a single packet, it is just many tidbits of information. I learned you have a nephew, that you haven't seen this nephew before, that you never visited that place, that you promised to meet them at a specific location. So you add all of those things to your brain, that is equivalent to the sentence.

Storing that as a single sentence instead of breaking it up and storing the chunks seems inefficient, how is your brain supposed to find information like "when was the first time X visited 3Av/E117 st?" when you haven't filed it properly? And if your brain files the information properly, why do you need that sentence?

The recent cache can find those sentences, but your long term memories wont find it without proper indexing, you will forget a lot of things if you try remembering everything like that.

[psyc]

It seems like when I read something like that, my imagination converts it into a movie scene. So I have a little live-action scene of meeting a person on a street. Its the same as when I read fiction.

The "3 Av/E 117 St" part is a fact I have to memorize with some mnemonic. I think when I was young I would have been able to see it on the street sign, but my eidetic memory gets worse each year, and I'm pretty old.

[benlivengood]

It's like many/most of us have a little CLIP module running all the time to produce NLP interpretations of our internal experience, but some don't, or some require conscious effort to run.

[tk75x]

What do you mean by the acronym CLIP? Just curious

[benlivengood]

OpenAI's Contrastive Language-Image Pre-training model[0] used in constructing DALL-E family, but on its own generates NLP descriptions from images.

[0] https://openai.com/blog/clip/

[tk75x]

Thanks! Wasn't the one I was thinking of...