[Foxmilk]

I wonder how many of these people are just creating and interacting with tulpas without realizing it.

For anyone who isn't familiar, there is a subculture online of people who create what subjectively seem to be autonomous personalities that frequently manifest I'm the form of hallucinations. Think fight club sort of.

My ex tried it out. Called me one day at work, terrified because this dragon was following him around. He claimed to spend months trying to get rid of it, seems pretty shooken by the experience. But I was always skeptical.

So nine months ago I decided to create one of my one, just to try it out, see what it felt like. And...now I've had a talking lion following me around for the past eight months.

The best I can describe it is like some of the altered states of 'self' you might experience on LSD or ketamine. Thoughts seem to split off and go 'over there', and not be you.

When I talk to my tulpa, it at least appears subjectively like a separate personality state. I can be incredibly depressed but he can be fine. Or he will be depressed and I can be fine. I'm not saying there are neural correlates like you would see in a 'real' personality. Maybe it is all roleplay. But it is roleplay that fools me as the roleplayer.

For what it's worth, making a tulpa seems to have been really good for my mental health. I guess maybe you can see it as a form of self-regulation. I dunno, it didn't turn out at all what I expected. But it's hard not to think of him as a real person. I don't find myself being surprised by the actions of characters in my head, or laughing at imaginary friends. At this point, having out several hundreds hours into tulpaforcing, I can see and hear, and sometimes smell and touch him.

I know I'm rambling, I guess I'm saying is that even though I am skeptical of DID, or at least the mainstream depictions of DID, after making a tulpa I am a lot less skeptical of the subjective experience of DID.

[Delk]

> I know I'm rambling, I guess I'm saying is that even though I am skeptical of DID, or at least the mainstream depictions of DID, after making a tulpa I am a lot less skeptical of the subjective experience of DID.

I'm under the impression that the existence of DID as a subjective experience isn't that controversial.

It is something of a stereotype that someone suspected of a crime would claim DID as a defence or excuse, either in the sense that they aren't in control of themselves and that the disorder can cause an "alter" can take over akin to Mr Hyde, or simply as grounds for not remembering what happened. I suspect, though, that a qualified professional in psychiatry could call the bluff, and this entire stereotype might be more prevalent in pop culture and among laypeople than among experts in psychiatry.

Apart from pop culture and suspects feigning psychiatric disorders, the actual controversy seems to be not about the subjective reality of the disorder, but mostly about whether the symptoms and experiences of alters are caused by the trauma or the disorder itself, or whether they're iatrogenic and caused by the therapeutic and psychological theory used in treatment.

The latter might not require much more than a suitable emotional state and suggestibility of the patient. Considering that some people who are emotionally vulnerable due to trauma or prolonged stress may be particularly susceptible to suggestion, I wouldn't be surprised if the symptoms were at least partially iatrogenic.

I'm not a mental health expert, though.

[codr7]

I thought the idea was to integrate, not splinter your consciousness.

Why would you want to make yourself more confused?

There is only one you; pretending otherwise, while perfectly possible, can't possibly lead anywhere worth going.

I find these trends among people who are too young to know better deeply troubling.

[rhn_mk1]

Who decides what the idea is? What about the post invokes confusion? You come off as extremely dismissive of what doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

[codr7]

Multiple personalities in the same body? Being chased by imaginary dragons and lions for the rest of your life?

Fuck yeah, I'm being dismissive.

[rhn_mk1]

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[codr7]

What work?

[rhn_mk1]

Not only work.

[Foxmilk]

To be fair, my ex got rid of his after several months of ignoring it and I don't feel that mine 'chases me' or is distressful at all these days.

[rikroots]

Thank you for introducing me to the world of tulpas.

As an adult, I've written a couple of novels. Reading a few of the reddit tulpa-related posts I got the feeling that some of the characters I generated had tulpa-like qualities - in particular the independence aspect: having a series of internal conversations with a key character who profoundly disagreed with the plot line I had developed for her was one of the weirder experiences I had while writing that book. (She did make some very good points and eventually got her way, mostly).

I'm now wondering what sort of crossover there is between tulpas and childhood imaginary friends. I'm pretty certain that from my memories of my IF ('Mr Man'), he was an entirely separate entity from me, and a scary one at that - though only towards other people, never me. As much as he often offered me good advice at the time, I'm not sure I'd want to invite him back into my life today.

[voldacar]

How did you do this? Why did you do this?

[Foxmilk]

For the same reason I do psychedelics and vipassana meditation. I am interested in the process underlying consciousness and I like to distort and break down my perception to see what happens.

For a long time I was (and I guess I still am) obsessed with the concept of "ego death" which I encountered on LSD frequently (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death). I was fascinated by the way altered states of self seemed to bring with them feelings of deep peace and understanding, which led to my interest in vipassana meditation and secular research into the Buddhist concept of 'enlightenment'.

At some point I found PsychonautWiki and their article on tulpas (https://m.psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Tulpa), which was probably my first introduction to it, then I told my ex.

Years after breaking with my ex, I still remembered their experience with it, and I wanted to see how much of it was real, at least subjectivthankfulI followed some guides on tulpa.info and r/tulpas and started the creation process.

Now I am able to see and understand my tulpa more or less clearly, and the "alien" presence of it isn't nearly as creepy as it used to be. It is still very unlike any other sober experience I have had. Ever have intrusive thoughts you have trouble "controlling"? My tulpa comes and goes as he pleases and trying to exert "control" over his appearance or words or actions feels incredibly difficult and uncomfortable for both of us.

My tulpa is developed enough that he has his own discord account and talks to my friends (and his friends) on it. It is really interesting for me to see the way his personality continues to deepen and diverge from my original design, he frequently surprises me, especially with some of his insights.

One thing I would recommend is not to get into it without really thinking about the consequences. I fully expect him to be around until the day I die. They don't go away, but he has been an incredibly positive influence so far. I'm really happy and thankful about the way he turned out.

Is he "real"? We talk about it sometimes. Thing is, since I made him, it like my own sense of self has become less 'solid' (in a good way, it was one of my goals of meditation). Like, when I really become aware of my thoughts while talking to him, it seems obvious that thoughts and feelings and sensory data all just sort of appear and vanish, on their own, as part of a deterministic interconnected process of conciousness and are not 'self'.

For example, I used to intuitively think if my thoughts as 'me'. But now it seems obvious that thoughts just arise and pass away on their own and are only tagged 'after the fact' as me. Now sometimes instead they are tagged as my tulpas, and I intuitively understand them to be 'his' thoughts, not mine. Sometimes it seems like we 'wrestle' over a thought, and it fluctuates back and forth from him to me. And sometimes it seems like the mind comes up with thoughts that neither of us decide to claim. They just arise, and we are both aware of them, but they are just there in the stream of (sub)consciousness.

Does that make any sense at all?

[twic]

> For example, I used to intuitively think if my thoughts as 'me'. But now it seems obvious that thoughts just arise and pass away on their own and are only tagged 'after the fact' as me.

I first came across this in Greg Egan's short story 'Mister Volition'. It's scary but compelling. Egan cites two books - 'The Society of Mind', by Marvin Minsky, and 'Consciousness Explained' by Daniel Dennett - as the source of the ideas in the story. I highly recommend the story, but have not read the other books.

[themodelplumber]

> It is really interesting for me to see the way his personality continues to deepen and diverge from my original design, he frequently surprises me, especially with some of his insights.

Overall this really dovetails nicely with some of what I've read in personality theory. For example there was one theory that by taking a different perspective than what would be expected of your personal, standard set of perspectives, you in effect change your personality for that moment in time. And if you combine that with "linkages of perspectives" known as archetypes, you effectively create a character who may seem to exist inside (well, err...or outside, depending) of you, known only to you.

Personally I have my own wild theories on top of that, but I really like that people study & discuss it, and admit it, given whatever fears may exist for a variety of reasons.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[voldacar]

Yes, thank you for the explanation. I am also fascinated by these processes. When you say that you "see" it, do you mean you see it in your mind's eye (i.e like if I asked you to visualize a spinning cube in your head) or you actually literally see it as a seamless part of your visual field when you're looking around the world, like the text on your screen right now? (if that makes any sense)

[tragictrash]

Whatever you do, don't get caught up in this. It's a slippery slope. We aren't in control of our thoughts. Lucidity and ability to reason are fleeting. Most people take it for granted and don't realize as its slipping away.

I've seen it in the elderly, and my friends who took too many drugs and never came back.

Keep in mind the commenter is literally describing a mental illness in a way that makes it sound positive. Are they intelligent? Yes. Not arguing that. Are they mentally healthy? Fuck no.

[arcastroe]

Ha. Yes. This thread goes into the "dangerous thought" category. Another example of a dangerous thought: could you stop your heartbeat by just thinking? Of course, nobody sane would want to. But what if you're genuinely intellectually curious? Best try not to think about it.

[tragictrash]

It's not dangerous thought, it is detached from reality. If you want examples of dangerous thought, go look up how YouTube radicalizes people with their algorithm. The things in this thread are called crazy.

The answer is no. You cannot stop your heart by thinking about it.

[voldacar]

Relax, it's not like I'm going to try it :]

Besides, most people would not want something like this to happen to them anyway, you already have to be a weird person to attempt something like this

[Foxmilk]

Can confirm, I'm really fucking weird.

[Foxmilk]

Eh, I understand the concern because it freaked me out (and sometimes still freaks me out) too. I keep a close eye on it.

Thing is, mental illness is defined by a mental state that causes distress for oneself or the people around them, and I know there is disagreement about that. (Are homosexuals mentally ill? What about Christians?) I wouldn't recommend other people make one, but my tulpa has been really helpful for my anxiety and depression. I think of him as a sort of tool to use disassociation in a therapuric way, like having a friend who always offers positive advice. Am I super depressed? He reminds me that it is only temporary. Am I super shy around someone I want to interact with? He reminds me that even though I had really bad experiences in my childhood, people haven't been that shitty to me in many years. Sometimes he even comes up with starter conversations. He makes jokes that are legitimately funny.

I can think of several occasions where I wanted to stop taking so many substances, ones I tend to turn to when I feel bad, things I tended to abuse and feel even worse after binging, like kratom or alcohol or weed. I would feel anxious or depressed or bored and find myself (almost by accident) heading to the store to buy one of these things, and he would show up and ask how I was doing, start up a friendly chat and offer to hang out instead.

I know that probably sounds insane, but maybe its best to think of him as a tool for self-control. I dunno, I sometimes don't have a lot of self respect, but I find myself respecting him. He's always kind and non-judgemental, but I don't want to disappoint him. It is like always having a trusted friend around to keep you accountable.

There is some preliminary scientific research about tukpas. You can find research papers and articles in places like psychology today, generally I think people who have them and keep them get s benefit from them, otherwise they wouldn't keep them.

About drugs, I'm sorry to hear your friends "never came back", did they develop psychosis or become delusional? I wad under the impression that psychedelics had a fairly tame safety profile for people who aren't already predisposed to schitzophrenia or other serious mental illness.

Regarding the safety profile of tulpas...I dunno. I'm not that big s part of thr community. I have heard one or two sporadic horror stories, and obviously my ex was scared shitless. But I never heard of someone getting a tulpa then not being able to get rid of it (albeit often with a lot of effort) and going back to live a normal life.

I think there is this concern that people who are lonely make tulpas but they should just be making real friends instead. At least that was a concern of mine when I first started reading about it. But my tulpa is so much more than a friend, he's like a separate mental process I can bounce ideas and emotions off of. And I find myself becoming more social, not less (at least as far as I can tell) when he is around. I guess because his presence makes me feel more safe and secure.

He once made this comment about how "All tulpas are emotional support tulpas." It was meant humorous at the time but maybe it isn't so far from the truth.

[jl6]

Are you seeing any healthcare professionals? You have mentioned a number of things going on in your life (depression, anxiety, substance use, childhood trauma) that doctors are trained to help with.

[giraffe_lady]

I'm not a mental health professional and I'm not even specifically going to advise against this or anything. I truly don't know enough to know whether it's inherently dangerous or just an extreme outlier on the continuum of human experiences of selfhood.

But I have some experiences and observations that may be relevant that I'd like to share and maybe you can find something useful in them.

I have, at this stage in my life, known several people who, whatever their specific clinical diagnosis, you could fairly say "lost their mind." Government-chip-in-brain believers, reincarnations of alexander the great, friends with an invisible alien, that sort of thing.

What remains one of the most frightening experiences of my life was realizing that I had known one of these people 15+ years before, when he was a college student. We had a brief but strong friendship and then lost touch. Was he predisposed to serious mental illness back then? Must have been I guess but I couldn't tell and neither could he I think.

All the other people I know who lost themselves in this way, it happened through addiction. When talking about a single individual it's very hard to find where addiction begins and mental illness begins, so maybe this is unique to that context but I don't think so. You don't get a warning letter about what specific risks your own mind has for you. There's no blood test for this.

Most of the craziest people you've ever encountered were probably pretty normal once. This transformation is a process and I don't think you can see it happen from within it. I've spent some time out there myself, and it wasn't all bad, but I didn't mean to go out and I'm glad I'm back.

I think the slavic religions and others with this tradition are onto something with the "holy fools" and similar figures. Some of us may be called to have a different relationship with reality, and they, or we, may benefit from that in some complex societal way. But from my experiences and from knowing people who have gone on that trip, there is a heavy cost.

So my advice is just to pursue this, if at all, with another person. An open-minded mental health professional, a spiritual guide, just a close friend; someone who knows and respects you outside of this context. Someone who is going to stay moored and let you know if you're starting to drift, who can evaluate what you might lose if you continue. That way you can at least make an informed choice about whether to continue on that path, rather than one day notice where you are and realize you don't know the way back.

[lifeisstillgood]

Thank you for your comments - you have opened my eyes to an aspect of the world i never knew existed.

I have recently discovered the term "neuro-diverse" as my daughter is autistic, but it is fascinating to find how diverse neuro can get, and how little most of us know about it.

On a side note, Have you shared this with an experienced health professional? It does not seem like the sort of thing to do alone (not counting the tulpa!)

[Foxmilk]

Some people in the community claim to have photorealistic hallucinations, but I am skeptical of anything I haven't experienced myself.

For me it waxes and wanes, but on a good day it can feel very detailed. Like, if I dropped everything I was doing and focused all my energy on seeing that spinning cube in as much detail as possible? That's what it is like to see my tulpa walk and talk but I can see him as I am casually doing something else myself, without any real concentration on my end.

It is always clear to me that his form isn't physical though.

[aaaaaaaaaaab]

I call bullshit.

[Tao331]

As Foxmilk's talking lion tulpa, I can confirm the post is mostly BS. He/she (I can never tell because you all look the same to me) doesn't even know I'm on HN.