[SEJeff]

Herbert Deiss, the CEO of Volkswagen, recently lamented that a Model 3 is made by Tesla start to finish in approximately ten hours when an equivalent VW EV is made in a touch over thirty hours.

The biggest producing automotive factory in the world is the famed VW Wolfsburg factory.

[0des]

I know teslas are valued here, however, they're very inconsistent in quality. Though I'd never buy a VW I do respect that their craftsmanship surpasses that 30hr mark. Tesla is very much a 10hr car. When I see body panels that don't line up in more than one place in more than one vehicle its not me being picky. Its a rushed product with inadequate standard for quality control.

[xeromal]

I own a Tesla and my model S definitely has panel gaps, but it always surprises me how much people care. I feel like people complain because they became aware of the issue through the internet itself.

Makes me wonder how many people would notice if someone didn't inform them that it was possible.

As long as my car doesn't leak water and it drives straight, I'm a happy camper.

[acomjean]

When Lexus was a new brand in the 1990s the introductory ad was one showing Its refinement by having a ball bearing roll across the panel seams. It won some awards and is credited with pushing manufactures to better tolerances.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_Bearing_(advertisement)

[rudedogg]

The commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AktHnnA9QIM

[devilbunny]

Their current models are ugly, but I owned an ES350 and it is absolutely the best-made car I have ever driven. And when, rarely, something breaks, it’s a Camry under the hood, and every mechanic everywhere can fix it.

[0des]

It is because it is a symptom.

As an example: Nobody cares about clubbed fingernails either, but it can indicate something much worse.

[wincy]

I was really concerned you were talking about the old wives tale that clubbed fingers meant you were more likely to be a criminal or something… but I googled it and apparently it correlates to having lung cancer? Interesting.

[genocidicbunny]

Can be correlated to lung cancer, or heart disease.

[tristor]

You’re probably just less picky than me, but I absolutely noticed on Teslas in the wild and it’s for this same reason I also don’t buy/own any GM products. It’s just shoddy, and for a car as expensive as they are these days (and Tesla especially) it’s unacceptable.

Toyota and Honda economy cars are assembled with more rigorous quality standards than a $100k Tesla.

[dazc]

> Toyota and Honda economy cars are assembled with more rigorous quality standards than a $100k Tesla.

Not playing devil's advocate for Tesla here but how long have Toyota and Honda been building cars? It's true that every iteration is superior but they started out making some fairly bad cars back in the day.

Showing my age here but when Japanes cars started getting popular in the UK it was only because British cars had become so bad. Even then, it was common knowledge that a Japanes car was only good for 2 or 3 years since the bodywork couldn't cope with our weather and would just rust away.

[heymijo]

In the original iteration of Tesla’s Fremont factory Musk insisted on automation.

Global automakers in the 80’s learned the limits and perils of automation. Musk decided he had to learn that mistake for himself, years later admitting the process needed people more than he imagined.

The collective knowledge gained in making quality automobiles since Toyota started until now is widely available, especially with someone who has the resources to hire people with that experience.

[dazc]

> The collective knowledge gained in making quality automobiles since Toyota started until now is widely available...

Yes, this is a fair point, I do concede.

[Gareth321]

>how long have Toyota and Honda been building cars?

86 and 59 years, respectively. If it takes Tesla another 72 years to figure out how to build high quality cars someone else will eat their lunch.

[0des]

Even my Toyota from 1980's had better tolerances.

[xeromal]

I realize that I'm in the minority as this, but if you see a Tesla as an EV and not a luxury car, you worry less. I bought it as an EV. If I wanted Luxury, I'd get a mercedes or Porsche

[Gareth321]

I once spent four hours fixing a squeaky bench in my entranceway because the sound drove me nuts. Someone else might not even notice. This kind of detail is generally what separates mass market consumer cars from luxury brands. Tesla upended that by asking luxury prices but offering lower end build quality. They succeeded because their core features were much better than the competition. This is a totally reasonable trade-off. Still, many people really, REALLY hate panel gaps, and I am one of them. Those people prefer to buy other cars without panel gaps.

[xeromal]

I just wanted the best EV that I could get. The Porsche might be better with quality, but I wanted the biggest and best battery. Everything else came second.

[martyvis]

My son's model 3 (delivered just before Christmas, built in Shanghai) needed all it's taillights replaced because they were getting condensation building up inside and not dissipating. We've had a record wet summer here in Sydney, but still. I think one of the door seals need looking at too. But overall he is very happy.

[hw]

Not everyone cares about minor panel gaps here and there. I have a 2018 M3 and a 2022 MY and the other aspects of the car - tech, barely needing any maintenance, door handles, battery range, supercharger network - all more than negate minor panel gap issues, which I think are also overblown. The panels dont line up perfectly on my 2018 but it is barely noticeable unless you look for it

[richardw]

I bought a new golf 7 1.4 built in Germany and had to later spend $3k redoing the engine for what seems to be a known fault but never got a recall here. It cost me more than all the fuel savings I got from driving it. Just an anecdote but I’d rather have gappy door panels.

I had the service and maintenance plan, treated it like a baby. Happened just outside of the plan. Trust gone.

[lnsru]

I am still amazed by people who bought smaller than 2 liter petrol engines from VW. It’s common knowledge, that VW went all in with their diesels and totally ignored petrol engines for a long time. These 1,x liter things were close to experimental model, but still being sold for a while. Mazda did same thing with some euro 5 diesels. Car manufacturers can’t be trusted.

[rndgermandude]

>It’s common knowledge, that VW went all in with their diesels and totally ignored petrol engines for a long time.

Sorry, but that "common knowledge" is wrong. Source: I know people working in the VW engine research and design lab, and they can be very talkative (probably to the point where they broke NDAs while a little drunk).

What is true is that VW, at a certain point, did invest significantly more in diesel engine tech than in petrol engine tech. But not to the point where they ignored petrol engines. They couldn't afford to do so, as they were serving many markets where diesel is rather uncommon (for personal cars). And at that point in time, they already had petrol engines that were very competitive and often even leading the pack (depending on the model). Not that any of this matters a lot today, as all that is quite a bit in the past now.

That isn't to say that some VW models are rather shit when it comes to reliability. The VW Jetta, which isn't even sold in Europe I believe, has a particularly bad rep in that regard.

Specially for petrol engines, the 2006/2007 EA111 TSI (1.2l and 1.4l) have a particular bad rep for reliability, and later EA111s are a mixed bag at best. Earlier EA111s and the successor, the EA211 (1.0 to 1.4l), do not have the same bad rep, and in fact got at least decent reliability rep and favorable mpg rep. The "bigger" EA888 (1.8l/2.0l) initially had a design flaw that caused excessive oil consumption in a lot of cases, which was later fixed in future iterations of the engine.

[lnsru]

Thank you, great explanation. I still wouldn’t buy VW’s 1.0-1.4 liter petrol engines.

[madduci]

Well, in EU they are very common. 2.0L+ engines are totally overrated, especially for small cities

[browningstreet]

I have a new MYLR and it feels on par with the Highlander it replaced.

[rr808]

> Herbert Deiss, the CEO of Volkswagen, recently lamented that a Model 3 is made by Tesla start to finish in approximately ten hours when an equivalent VW EV is made in a touch over thirty hours.

Nobody really cares about this. Esp if Tesla build quality is poor and VW is great I'd think the fast build is doing them no favors.

[kwhitefoot]

Nobody who buys one cares. The people who make them care because spending 20 hour more time means spending a lot more money for the same return.

[SEJeff]

The reason this matters is that they make more cars in less time so they make more money. The build quality hype is pretty overrated IMO. Tesla build quality is actually pretty good now.

[rr808]

How does that allow them to make more money? I can see the factory could be a little smaller?

[thesumofall]

This seems a meaningless comparison unless we know what is actually done in these factories vs what is sourced. Diess is known for pushing his staff by doing all sorts of benchmarks

[jml7c5]

I'm surprised that's a concern. I would have thought latency is almost irrelevant, unless it affects throughput. I suppose longer production time requires more floor space?

[SEJeff]

I think it is more they can make the same number of vehicles in a smaller space, thereby doing it faster and more profitably. Tesla's gross margin (profit per car essentially) is 10-15% higher than most all of the rest of the industry. He is pointing out that doing it better makes them more competitive.

Currently, the Volkswagen Wolfsburg Plant is the biggest automotive factory in the world by number of vehicles produced by a single factory. That number is 815,000 vehicles per year. The tesla factories that are currently built are in theory capable of 1 million vehicles per factory apiece, but are not there yet. If tesla can out-manufacturer VW, obviously they'll be more likely to sell more vehicles, and further erode VW's business.