[pmoriarty]

If "All [MDMA] does is artificially increase serotonin.... just like prozac" then Prozac and MDMA would have the same effect. But they have radically different effects, so they must do at least something differently, despite sharing some similarities.

[SpodGaju]

Yes, it works more quickly. That’s the only difference. And it is more like the SNRIs, like cymbalta with some effect or encouraging the release of catecholamines.

But the effect is the same, more neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft.

People abuse Prozac as well if that given you a clue on their similarities.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8093133/

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.150.12....

[rndphs]

As someone who has spent a lot of time reading the science of these chemicals, as well as their cultural impact and the experiences of people that I know and have talked to, as well as many experiences I have read about online. I can say that this is such a bad take that it's almost funny.

It's like saying that a helicopter and a blender are the same device because they both have spinning blades. These two substances are completely different in just about every way that they affect people, aside from producing a mood boost (which is an effect also caused by things like morphine, cocaine, a few different psychedelics, alcohol, caffeine, nitrous oxide, and many many more substances which don't act via serotonin).

One of the main theories on the action of MDMA involves the sudden serotonin release inhibiting the amygdala and thus reducing fear response. Prozac certainly does not do this. MDMA's effects are not even all shared with other serotonin releasers such as fenfluoramine or MDAI. And Prozac's effects differ somewhat from other SSRIs too.

The neurotransmitters and receptors in the brain are not a set of dials where you can ratchet one and always expect a given psychological effect independent of the other receptors, or even independent of the way it's ratcheted, or even the timing of it. Also the effect of these drugs is highly dependent on context too. Believe it or not, MDMA can sometimes produce dysphoria and or unpleasant/unhappy mental state. It is uncommon, but I have seen it happen.

Sorry for the rant, it's just this type of oversimplification really strikes a nerve with me.

[SpodGaju]

You want to see funny? You said:

> One of the main theories on the action of MDMA involves the sudden serotonin release inhibiting the amygdala and thus reducing fear response. Prozac certainly does not do this.

{cough}

Fluoxetine Facilitates Fear Extinction Through Amygdala Endocannabinoids

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4832021/

Chronic fluoxetine prevents fear memory generalization and enhances subsequent extinction by remodeling hippocampal dendritic spines and slowing down systems consolidation

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-019-0371-3

Serotonin-2C receptors in the basolateral nucleus of the amygdala mediate the anxiogenic effect of acute imipramine and fluoxetine administration

https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/15/3/389/720875?login=...

You read some articles. That is not enough. You are being duped by more pharmaceutical company propaganda.

Have you ever ask yourself why they don’t investigate the reason people are not producing enough serotonin? Or white people lack serotonin?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5337390/

[rndphs]

Have you actually talked with people who have taken these drugs? The way prozac affects people is clearly much much different from the way MDMA affects people.

Also, from your first link: "In contrast to fluoxetine, citalopram treatment did not increase BLA eCBs or facilitate extinction." And your second link: "Importantly, other SSRIs such as citalopram have shown the opposite effect, disrupting acquisition and retention of fear extinction"

Yeah...

Plus "fear extinction" is not the same as immediate fear reduction/inhibition as seen with MDMA.

I think that we as humans like to believe that we know more than what we do about these sorts of things.

Edit: Your third link talks about anxiogenic effects of fluoxetine, i.e. increases anxiety; literally the opposite of what you are arguing.

[pmoriarty]

"it works more quickly. That’s the only difference"

I'd like to see a paper from a reputable journal saying that MDMA is just a quicker working version of Prozac.

[SpodGaju]

OK, wait, let me call at my pharmaceutical buddies and have them do a study that shows that the New drug they wanna make billions of dollars from works just like Prozac but faster. I’ll get back to you in a minute.

The fact that people are even slightly amazed at an amphetamine will make people happier is amazing to me. Don’t you’ll realize you’re substituting Street dealers for dealers in suits?

[pmoriarty]

MDMA is not a new drug. It was used for therapy as far back as the 1980's.

It doesn't merely "make people happier", but seems to actually help people face and let go of their trauma, forgive themselves and others, feel love and trust where they couldn't before, communicate with their loved ones more effectively, and has stopped some from killing themselves.

There is a lot of evidence that it effectively treats severe, treatment-resistant PTSD -- something no other type of treatment does even remotely as well, which is why it's likely to be fully approved by the FDA soon.

To compare its effects to other amphetamines, except at the most superficial level is ridiculous, as none of them have these effects.

As for dealers, I'd be happy if dealers (the street or suit kind) sold effective medication that improves people's lives. Of course the legal providers are better because then we can be assured of their medicines' safety and purity, and we won't have people thrown in jail and being killed in turf wars over something that helps people.