[CSSer]

It's been awhile since I've seen this passage. I forgot how much of the bible is a diss track on the pagans.

> Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

I find this bit in particular pretty humorous because it makes it sound like god's voicemail inbox is overflowing and he doesn't have time for your shit.

[TimTheTinker]

The point is that God is a Father - like a dad one has a great relationship with. No one with a good relationship with their dad spins a request wheel at him, or says the same thing 100 times in a row to him. If you ever did so, there's something wrong in your relationship with your dad -- same with God.

So in that respect, a Christian's relationship with God ought to me markedly different from how many other religions relate to the gods they worship.

[gumby]

> No one with a good relationship with their dad spins a request wheel at him...

This comment makes me think you've never had a toddler, much less a teen.

[ilammy]

The point being: you're supposed to grow up eventually.

[falcolas]

> The point is that God is a Father - like a dad one has a great relationship with.

Tell that to Job. Whose "Father" tortured him to win a bet.

[dddddaviddddd]

The author of Job and the authors of Matthew and Luke obviously disagree about what kind of relationship humanity supposedly has with God. I think it's important to see the Bible as a collection of books from different times and places, each with their own rhetorical goals.

[falcolas]

> I think it's important to see the Bible as a collection of books from different times and places, each with their own rhetorical goals.

And yet that's not how the bible is taught at a vast majority of churches. "The bible is the word of God. Jesus changed his relationship with us, which is why his behavior is different between the old and new Testament. End of discussion."

I still recall the lecture I got when I once questioned whether Genesis was an allegory for the creation of the universe over billions of years. "No, it was 7 days, exactly as the bible says."

[cbfrench]

I mean, that’s how it’s taught in a majority of evangelical churches, which is what I gather you mean. St. Augustine was pretty clear that it wasn’t a literal seven days, and Pope Pius XII in Humani generis accepted that human evolution was a thing. So, granting the numerical superiority of the Catholic tradition, not a majority of churches.

[falcolas]

Ironically (or not) I was lectured by a Catholic. So, regardless of how the Saints and Popes tell it, if it goes against the local priest's beliefs, it's not going to be reflected in the church.

The evidence is plentiful too: look at how the individual churches have taken Pope Benedict's tolerance of previously taboo individuals (homosexuals, for example). Something else I get to hear about at holiday parties.

[TimTheTinker]

I don't see any disagreement. The Bible's theme throughout is that God's people should expect and ensure suffering. God "did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all" (from Romans 8) -- and he doesn't spare us either from suffering. "It was the Will of the Lord to crush him [messiah]." (From Isaiah 53)

Christians "who suffer according to God's will should entrust themselves to their faithful creator while continuing to do good." (from 1 Peter 4)

"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer." (from Romans 8)

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning the shame, and sat down at the right hand of God" (from Hebrews 12)

So Job, like Jesus himself, serves as an example of a faithful son who endured suffering and after a short while was restored.

[TimTheTinker]

* expect and endure suffering

[Thorentis]

God wasn't the one doing the torturing. Yes, you could debate whether an omnipotent God is actually responsible for every single thing that happens given He can intervene. But I don't think anybody who takes Job literally simultaneously believes that God is the one doing the torturing.

[falcolas]

"I'm sorry, son. Of course I have the power to stop all these bad things from happening to you (I'm God, duh), but you see I have this bet going with the serpent about how you'll react to having terrible things happen to you, so no."

I'd like to believe it's a generally accepted truth that if you have the knowledge that something really, really bad's happening (by way of Job praying, the topic of this entire thread), the power to do something about it, and have been doing things about it before, and yet refuse because of a wager, YTA.

In such a situation, whether it's God or the world doing the torture is kinda splitting hairs.

[tacon]

>anybody who takes Job literally

“My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically and we are now dumb enough to take them literally.”[0]

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/816617-my-point-once-again-...

[falcolas]

Even symbolically, Job is one dark tale. The distance faith will carry someone is tremendous because they believe that the bad things happening to them happen for a reason. And even if it's a bad reason, there's still the promise of rewards and redemption afterwards.

[woodruffw]

The lord of the Hebrew Bible was clearly running on the testnet, and should not have been used for actual transactions.

[Ekaros]

Or an pretty horrible character, giving horrible advice... Generally not a great moral beacon, with all things done and all things advocated like bashing children against rocks and so on... Then again, what can you expect from ancient tribal religion...

[krapp]

And then when God explains himself, he goes off on a tangent about this awesome dragon OC of his and how badass it is.

[swat535]

As a Catholic, your hour of prayer is supposed to be reserved for glorying God, giving thanks and showing respect. It's not an hour spent with a list of "requests" , this is not what religious people do.

There can be moments of personal intentions (both during vigils and prayers) but most of the time people offer them for health and well being of others. We are not supposed to really care much about earthly possessions as our hearts should belong to God first and our neighbors second (Matthew 22:36-40).

[gumby]

> It's been awhile since I've seen this passage. I forgot how much of the bible is a diss track on the pagans.

Ideal marketing is both puffing your product and dissing the competition. The old testament is really full of the latter...the new testament has less.

> > Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

So why pray at all?

[jordanmoconnor]

I've thought about this specific question a lot and I think it comes down to humility. Being in a place of needing something (and acknowledging that fact) is the opposite of pride. Pride is something the Bible mentions many times as something detrimental: “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.” Proverbs 16:18

[hprotagonist]

>So why pray at all?

so that you learn what you need, too.

and, ultimately, to say "thanks".

(same question asked differently: "why meditate?" "why mindfulness?")

[falcolas]

Yeah, things get a bit weird when you make your God omniscient. Even though I know exactly what you need and whether or not you'll pray for it, you still need to pray for what you need, but you might or might not get it based on my whim (even though I know my answer before you ever identify your need), whether or not you pray.

[tekknik]

Why are you here? You’re spreading hate because you don’t believe. It’s fine if you don’t believe, but you have to spread your hate to the rest of us? Could you not have simply moved passed this post?

[gumby]

> because you don’t believe

Seems like a strong assertion to make based on a short comment by someone who based their statement on having read the gospels and a good chunk of the Old Testament.

And what’s with the mention of hate? I don’t see any in the comment. And sure, there’s plenty of it in the Old Testament but the New Testament doesn’t even want you to hate the Romans.

Was the Apostle Thomas not a believer? Did he preach hate?

The beam might be in your eye, tekknik.

[tekknik]

Oh so you’re religious then?

What’s with the “marketing” thing? Can that be taken as hateful or not?

[gumby]

I see billboards and bus bench signs encouraging people to chose this or that religious experience. Tv ads for people to pay for this or that religious knickknack. Are they all hate speech? Jesus famously wasn’t a fan.

I was responding in my comment to a previous comment which was correctly describing various parts of the old testament in which their god assails all those other gods, says that you have to worship him first, talks about his wrath and jealousy and the risks if you don’t stick him first. Not to mention the dissing of other tribes, and witches, and other undesirables. All that stuff is a pretty clear marketing message.

There are of course other messages as well, but the original commenter, and my response, referred to the marketing sections.

As for being religious: is there a constraint on who is allowed to read the texts and or interpret them? Are adherents of only certain religions permitted to read them?

[tekknik]

Since this seems to be hard for you Ill make it easy. Your argument was made in bad faith. It’s extremely easy to tell from the words you wrote that you hate religion. In all other cases in society, if you don’t agree with something you just keep your mouth shut and move on.