[TimTheTinker]

The point is that God is a Father - like a dad one has a great relationship with. No one with a good relationship with their dad spins a request wheel at him, or says the same thing 100 times in a row to him. If you ever did so, there's something wrong in your relationship with your dad -- same with God.

So in that respect, a Christian's relationship with God ought to me markedly different from how many other religions relate to the gods they worship.

[gumby]

> No one with a good relationship with their dad spins a request wheel at him...

This comment makes me think you've never had a toddler, much less a teen.

[ilammy]

The point being: you're supposed to grow up eventually.

[falcolas]

> The point is that God is a Father - like a dad one has a great relationship with.

Tell that to Job. Whose "Father" tortured him to win a bet.

[dddddaviddddd]

The author of Job and the authors of Matthew and Luke obviously disagree about what kind of relationship humanity supposedly has with God. I think it's important to see the Bible as a collection of books from different times and places, each with their own rhetorical goals.

[falcolas]

> I think it's important to see the Bible as a collection of books from different times and places, each with their own rhetorical goals.

And yet that's not how the bible is taught at a vast majority of churches. "The bible is the word of God. Jesus changed his relationship with us, which is why his behavior is different between the old and new Testament. End of discussion."

I still recall the lecture I got when I once questioned whether Genesis was an allegory for the creation of the universe over billions of years. "No, it was 7 days, exactly as the bible says."

[cbfrench]

I mean, that’s how it’s taught in a majority of evangelical churches, which is what I gather you mean. St. Augustine was pretty clear that it wasn’t a literal seven days, and Pope Pius XII in Humani generis accepted that human evolution was a thing. So, granting the numerical superiority of the Catholic tradition, not a majority of churches.

[falcolas]

Ironically (or not) I was lectured by a Catholic. So, regardless of how the Saints and Popes tell it, if it goes against the local priest's beliefs, it's not going to be reflected in the church.

The evidence is plentiful too: look at how the individual churches have taken Pope Benedict's tolerance of previously taboo individuals (homosexuals, for example). Something else I get to hear about at holiday parties.

[cbfrench]

Yeah, that’s about right, unfortunately. Your average local priest may not wish to (or does not wish to) know about the broader sweep of tradition. So, whatever he believes becomes the version of the tradition you encounter. I say all of this as an Anglican priest, so I’m seriously sorry that’s been your experience. Generally one hopes the Catholics (at least their clergy) are at least a bit more familiar with their own teachings than the evangelical fundamentalists.

[TimTheTinker]

I don't see any disagreement. The Bible's theme throughout is that God's people should expect and ensure suffering. God "did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all" (from Romans 8) -- and he doesn't spare us either from suffering. "It was the Will of the Lord to crush him [messiah]." (From Isaiah 53)

Christians "who suffer according to God's will should entrust themselves to their faithful creator while continuing to do good." (from 1 Peter 4)

"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer." (from Romans 8)

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning the shame, and sat down at the right hand of God" (from Hebrews 12)

So Job, like Jesus himself, serves as an example of a faithful son who endured suffering and after a short while was restored.

[TimTheTinker]

* expect and endure suffering

[Thorentis]

God wasn't the one doing the torturing. Yes, you could debate whether an omnipotent God is actually responsible for every single thing that happens given He can intervene. But I don't think anybody who takes Job literally simultaneously believes that God is the one doing the torturing.

[falcolas]

"I'm sorry, son. Of course I have the power to stop all these bad things from happening to you (I'm God, duh), but you see I have this bet going with the serpent about how you'll react to having terrible things happen to you, so no."

I'd like to believe it's a generally accepted truth that if you have the knowledge that something really, really bad's happening (by way of Job praying, the topic of this entire thread), the power to do something about it, and have been doing things about it before, and yet refuse because of a wager, YTA.

In such a situation, whether it's God or the world doing the torture is kinda splitting hairs.

[tacon]

>anybody who takes Job literally

“My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically and we are now dumb enough to take them literally.”[0]

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/816617-my-point-once-again-...

[falcolas]

Even symbolically, Job is one dark tale. The distance faith will carry someone is tremendous because they believe that the bad things happening to them happen for a reason. And even if it's a bad reason, there's still the promise of rewards and redemption afterwards.

[woodruffw]

The lord of the Hebrew Bible was clearly running on the testnet, and should not have been used for actual transactions.

[Ekaros]

Or an pretty horrible character, giving horrible advice... Generally not a great moral beacon, with all things done and all things advocated like bashing children against rocks and so on... Then again, what can you expect from ancient tribal religion...

[krapp]

And then when God explains himself, he goes off on a tangent about this awesome dragon OC of his and how badass it is.