[cik2e]

Too many people have let their vision become consumed by the fact that Trump was an insufferable asshole. A nuanced discussion can be had about his time in office and his actual actions, without giving undue weight to the shit that comes out of the man's mouth. Just as an example of something most democrats would applaud, he signed an executive order to keep federal unemployment assistance flowing, while congress was happy to keep bickering and holding millions of Americans hostage. I'm not trying to break down the man's presidency here, but I would say that this provided more good to the average American, in a time of great need, than anything any recent president had done.

I do feel compelled to mention the following in regard to the comparison with Bush. The man, Cheney's puppet as he was, started an illegal war that killed a few hundred thousand people. Using the intelligence apparatus to manipulate Congress and the American people, in my view, is much worse than anything Trump had done. Same with enabling the domestic spying apparatus with the Patriot Act. If that's not undermining our institutions, I don't know what is.

I guess I should preempt the obvious counter argument about Trump's allegation that the election was stolen. The Democrats did the same exact thing with Russiagate. Both in terms of the accusation and pursuing it through legal channels, all based on fictional evidence to boot.

We should not allow us to miss the bigger picture while falling for the manufacrured distraction of "my party vs their party." But rather look to understand the special interests that are amplifying our division, and benefitting from it.

[ModernMech]

> The Democrats did the same exact thing with Russiagate. Both in terms of the accusation and pursuing it through legal channels, all based on fictional evidence to boot.

It’s incredible that this is still being parroted even after the Russian invasion. Go and read at the actual Muller report and Senate Intel report vol 5. The findings of the us senate and special counsel are that Russia hacked the 2016 election with the intent of helping Trump, and the Trump campaign worked willingly with them on this effort and lied about it to everyone.

Most notably, Trump’s campaign manager was sharing internal campaign data with a Russian Intel officer, who transmitted the data to the GRU. This is the collusion we had all claimed was happening, and it was found. Calling this a hoax at this point is willingly spreading Russian disinformation. This is the position of Vladimir Putin, that Russian interference in 2016 was a hoax. Think about that, as he bombs and targets civilians. Why are you still carrying their water for them on this front? What if, actually, after all these years, you are wrong about that? What evidence would it take to change your mind?

Let me ask you this, as you say the Russian scandal was based on fictional evidence, how many pages of the Mueller report and Senate Intel report have you personally actually read?

Here’s their bottom line:

  It is our conclusion, based on the facts detailed in the Committee's Report, that the Russian intelligence services' assault on the integrity of the 2016 U.S. electoral process[,] and Trump and his associates' participation in and enabling of this Russian activity, represents one of the single most grave counterintelligence threats to American national security in the modern era.

Trump and his associates participated and enabled hacking of his rivals in 2016. Russian collusion. Republicans authored that report, btw. What’s your position on the 2016 election after reading that?

[dc-programmer]

I think it’s too soon to make an assessment. Trump spent his whole presidency casting aspersions on NATO, and tried to cut defense aid to Ukraine. If this situation escalates further, he may be viewed as a James Buchanan figure.

And I do think things may get worse. Currently a sovereign country is being invaded and civilians are being targeted. The second order effects might be even worse

* If Russia pulls resources from Syria then the civil war might come to a head. The regime leans heavily on Russian air support

* Russian paramilitary provides defense for unpopular governments like Tanzania’s. If they got pulled these countries might go into civil war

* Ukraine and Russia are two of the worlds largest exporters of grain. Countries like Egypt are big importers (Egypt actually subsidizes the purchases heavily). If grain costs go up (and other commodities like oil) this could cause unrest

* Nuclear war

* Cyber war targeting key infrastructure. The possibility of massive collateral damage is high (see Not Petya)

Some of these things are not intrinsically bad (I have no love for despotic governments for example) but the potential sum total of events could throw the world into chaos.

The War on Terror was a massive mistake. America needs to keep the crazy evangelicals who want to bring on the end times by attacking the Middle East far from the oval office. But taking on an isolationist position in response to the 2000’s would be a massive mistake. It’s clearer than ever that power vacuums have to be filled