[itsoktocry]

>a significant proportion of the Russian population believe the Ukranian deaths are due to Ukranians just killing themselves.

This sounds like Western meta-propaganda. Russia isn't some mysterious other-world filled with low IQ people. Are we really to believe that swaths of their population believes the Ukranians are merely offing themselves during an invasion? Is there anything we can read that points to this, even Fox News-type article making the claim? Colour me skpetical.

[hprotagonist]

I have a family member who ended a 60 year friendship yesterday because the other party, who lives in moscow, wholly embraces the russian propaganda line; up to and including telling my family member that it's impossible that the city they both grew up in has been being shelled for the last week, and it was just the west's lies.

[unfocussed_mike]

How dreadful :-(

Yet again this week: this needs upvoting for visibility and downvoting for their experience.

Many in the UK and the USA in particular (but in Europe as well) can relate to this kind of experience of talking to someone who exists in an irrational belief bubble concerning one or two other topics.

But in most cases it doesn't have anywhere near the stark awfulness of this.

[jlokier]

'My city's being shelled, but mum won’t believe me' (bbc.co.uk)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60600487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30555692

--

The 25-year-old has been speaking regularly to her mother, who lives in Moscow. But in these conversations, and even after sending videos from her heavily bombarded hometown, Oleksandra is unable to convince her mother about the danger she is in.

"I didn't want to scare my parents, but I started telling them directly that civilians and children are dying," she says.

"But even though they worry about me, they still say it probably happens only by accident, that the Russian army would never target civilians. That it's Ukrainians who're killing their own people."

--

He was surprised not to have heard from his father, who works at a monastery near Nizhny Novgorod in Russia. He called his father and described what was happening. His father replied that this wasn't true; there was no war and - in fact - Russians were saving Ukraine from Nazis.

Mykhailo said he felt he knew the power of Russian propaganda, but when he heard it from his father, he was devastated.

"My own father does not believe me, knowing that I'm here and see everything with my own eyes. And my mum, his ex-wife, is going through this too," he says.

"She is hiding with my grandmother in the bathroom, because of the bombardment."

--

"I called my mum again. I told her I was scared. 'Don't worry', she said, reassuringly. 'They [Russia] will never bomb Kyiv'."

But they are already doing it, Anastasiya replied.

"I told her there were casualties among civilians. 'But that's what we had too when Ukraine attacked Donbas!', she said, laughing. For a moment I couldn't breathe. Hearing my mum say this with such cruelty just broke my heart."

Anastasiya believes the image Russian media has created is one of the "glorified Russian army" ridding Ukraine from Nazis. For years she avoided political arguments with her parents, but this time she slammed the phone down on her mum.

We spoke to Anastasiya when she was travelling away from Kyiv after four nights in a bomb shelter. Her mind was on an uncertain future.

[parkingrift]

A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen. And that’s with free press in America.

Not at all hard to believe that a significant proportion of Russian people believe this lie.

[itsoktocry]

>A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen.

Are you actually claiming that the scale of absurdity between believing election fraud (something members of both parties claim, every losing election, going back decades[1]) and that Ukrainians are killing themselves, en masse, are remotely the same?

1. Here's Hilary Clinton continuing to make claims about 2016 in mainstream media: https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-maintains-2016-electi...

[tgb]

Someone believing either the 2016 or 2020 US elections were “stolen” in any meaningful sense of the word would be under a similar level of propaganda to someone thinking that the Russian invasion is to stop Ukrainians killing each other, yes.

[LgWoodenBadger]

Come on man. His is an example of real life “if gold rusts, what then of iron?”

If people with a free press believe propaganda and lies, what do you expect of people who only have a state-run propaganda machine?

[itsoktocry]

>what do you expect of people who only have a state-run propaganda machine?

This is your error. They don't "only" have state-run propaganda, and these aren't a backwards, brainwashed, uneducated people.

[tsol]

Independent news sources are rare in Russia, especially with the recent law making "misinformation" a jailable offense with up to 15 years jail time. I'm not saying there isn't any other news sources, but it legitimately seems like you have to go well out of your way to find them. How many Americans are digging into different news sources to see if the narrative on Ukraine is true or if it's all a western farce? Just the same many Russians aren't double checking the narrative they're being fed

[itsoktocry]

Your last point I agree with: not many.

I'm not in Russia, obviously, but from what I can gather from social media, although outside media is "banned", it's still easy enough to find. Similarly to how easy I can still find RT (or worse).

[parkingrift]

Straw man. I said no such thing. Please respond to the text I actually wrote.

[itsoktocry]

I literally quoted you, and responded to it. Here it is again:

"A significant proportion of Americans believe the 2020 election was fraudulently stolen. And that’s with free press in America. Not at all hard to believe that a significant proportion of Russian people believe this lie."

Believing in election fraud and believing that a population are coincidentally killing themselves during a military incursion are not remotely analogous.

[parkingrift]

Again, that’s not an argument I’ve made. Please respond to what I’ve written, not an imaginary argument you’ve decided to defeat.

[itsoktocry]

Hey, here's an idea: how about you actually clarify your point then, instead of repeating "that's not my argument".

But for fun, once again, your statement appears to be: "if Americans can believe the 2020 election was stolen (the first sentence), then it's not a stretch to think Russians will believe the Ukrainians are killing themselves (the third sentence)."

It's right there for everyone to read. So what are you actually arguing?

[shaky-carrousel]

Yes, they can be pretty much the same. There have been suicidal warriors in the past, it's not really that absurd. Propaganda could say they are killing themselves to make Russia look bad.

I remember a very suspicious suicide in Argentina, and how some media were theorizing that he killed himself to make the government look bad.

[itsoktocry]

>There have been suicidal warriors in the past, it's not really that absurd.

You believe that the Russians believe this about the Ukrainians? A people with whom they share much culture?

>Propaganda could say they are killing themselves to make Russia look bad.

Yeah, it could say anything. How about demonstrating it does say?

[lettergram]

> And that’s with free press in America.

Part of the issue is it isn’t free. So many people were banned. News stories banned. Companies banned and dropped.

When you get that level of censorship it creates a massive level of distrust. Further, what’s “truth” when the facts can’t be debated...

[travisgriggs]

Segue here. I think it is time to rethink the term “free press”. In much the same way we had to wrestle with “free software.” Was it free as in beer? Or free as in speech?

The internet press is more “free as in beer” than ever. It costs nothing. It is probably about as “free as in speech” as it ever was, the variety is a testament to that. But it is not free from influence. It is tied to a profit feedback motive more than it ever has been. Put words on a screen, optimize for profit yield. Until the “press” regains its freedom from this, it will not be free. It will be profit constrained.

In a similar vein, I think it is silly we have social media. It’s profit media more than it is social.

[fredophile]

I read something similar. I believe it was a BBC article but could be wrong. IIRC it was fairly common in Russians who did not speak a second language and not common in English speaking Russians.

I think you misinterpreted what the parent poster meant about Ukrainian s killing themselves. It probably meant Ukrainians killing other Ukrainians in false flag operations and not suicides.

[lovelyviking]

> Are we really to believe that swaths of their population believes the Ukranians are merely offing themselves during an invasion?

This is exactly what they believe. More then that , they are told that some of Ukrainians are “nazis” who kill ‘normal’ Ukrainians. They’ve been told that all horrible bombing scenes the world is witnessing are done not by rus. invader but by by those “nazis” Ukrainians. They are truly believe that and they are happy that rus. army is saving “normal” Ukrainians.

Talk to me about their IQ but it is impossible to convince them otherwise, and trust me I’ve tried and others tried they are complete zombies and would not trust even relatives. They would say that you are brain washed by western propaganda and only them are proud russians who know the truth. No logic can convince them because the source of their believes is not logically based but emotionally based.

Yes it’s that bad! And people in the west who do not understand that are too naive and have no idea with what they are dealing and how enormously dangerous it is. For many people this war came as big surprise. They still think that if russians only knew they would stop. Only force cam stop them now. Sanctions are too little too late and too slow and people in Ukraine are dying also due to the stupidity and naivety of those who can stop it.

If you think I am exaggerating, try to convince at least one russian, and share your experience here !!!

[coward-guy]

Unfortunately, Russian propaganda is based of facts which are hard to dispute: * Right Sector - Ukrainian nationalist neo-nazi political party in Ukrainian parliamentary * Azov Detachment - neo-Nazi unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, who participated in wars in Donbass * Lots of streets are named after Stepan Bandera, for example Stepan Bandera Avenue in Kyiv, who was a leader of Ukrainian ultranationalists and cooperated with Nazi Germany in 1941 against USSR

[witrak]

Such arguments seem to be rather strange. How would you react to similar propaganda about temporary Americans based on the number of monuments of South generals and politicians from the Civil War period? They still weren't removed everywhere in the USA.

Does it give credibility to the allegation that there's still slavery in America?

[coward-guy]

That's true. However, to be fair, the monuments of South generals were erected a long time ago, but the avenue was renamed in 2016.

[secondcoming]

Very convenient facts. Eastern Europe is full of far-right, even Russia itself. This invasion would have happened regardless of any Nazi presence in Ukraine

[coward-guy]

Yeah, I know. I've just listed the facts what Russian television transmits everyday...

[nkozyra]

Unless you're suggesting the poster is part of the meta propaganda I'm unclear on this. These are direct firsthand accounts from friends.

[itsoktocry]

Maybe it's just me, but when I read "I've a friend that..." on the internet, it doesn't much sway my opinion. Besides, there's nothing wrong with questioning the claim, is there? I truly am skeptical that "significant" portions of the Russian population believes the Ukrainians are killing themselves. That doesn't mean it's not true.

[rustybelt]

The only thing I’m confident about when it comes to this war is that both sides are lying their asses off.

[throwaway894345]

Propaganda has been similarly effective in North Korea, China, and USSR. Were those places full of low-IQ people? Or is it possible that propaganda affects even average and high-IQ people?

[shaky-carrousel]

> Russia isn't some mysterious other-world filled with low IQ people.

Neither is the US. But you and me have seen during this pandemic, to people able to reason that pneumonia can kill, and covid can cause pneumonia, but unable to reason that covid can kill. Propaganda is like that.

You only have to take a look at what sects do to people to see the kind of gymnastics people can do in their reasoning because propaganda.

[unfocussed_mike]

> You only have to take a look at what sects do to people to see the kind of gymnastics people can do in their reasoning because propaganda.

Or on the individual level -- I labour this point because I sadly see it in people I know -- at the kind of mental gymnastics an abused partner inevitably uses to explain away their situation and avoid challenging it.

The thing is, analysis paralysis happens even in situations without a malign actor.

Many malign actors have an instinctive, almost unknowing ability to exploit it.

[umanwizard]

I have never met anyone who doesn’t believe Covid can kill.

Usually, it’s a strawman. People in favor of lockdowns, masks, and similar interventions ridicule those who aren’t by falsely claiming they “don’t believe in Covid”.

Whether it’s worth accepting X amount of suffering to increase average life expectancy by Y years depends on the values of X and Y. If someone argues it’s not worth it in a particular case, that doesn’t necessarily mean they think Y is zero.

[shaky-carrousel]

Well, that's you and you circle of people. I can count at least five persons in my circle of friend who think people are not dying of covid. Some acknowledge more people are dying, but they think the reason is different, other people think statistics are being manipulated.

But there are people who literally think the world is 4000 years old. There are people who believe evolution doesn't happen. There are even people who believe the earth is flat. And you find a strawman that there are people who think that nobody is dying of covid?

[nafizh]

It's not like this is something new. Majority Chinese people are supportive of CCP no matter what it does. Even if there's opposition among mass people, there's no way to know.

[kredd]

The interesting part is how Chinese government was able to prove itself that it can lift up people from poverty over the years, so confidence and trust of the citizens hasn’t been on a free-fall. I’m not sure of the same would apply to Russian government. There’s a weird combination of trust and fear within Chinese population, but mostly fear within Russians that I have interacted with in the past.

[alm1]

if you speak Russian you can go on vk.com and check some of the exchanges on public groups. There are also few "interviewing regular Russians on the streets" videos circulating around.

To clarify the belief that was cultivated through propaganda is that there are reckless Nazi groups in Ukraine who stop at nothing to hurt russians. They were striking at ethnically russian regions of Ukraine for last 8 years. When Russia invaded to fight these groups they positioned their forces in the hospitals and schools. As they strike back they are hitting their own schools and hospitals mostly from being sloppy, because that's what they are and the equipment is old. And in some cases maliciously, because they need gruesome content for the west. Russian forces are doing precision strikes and hurt no civilians.

I think you underestimate how massive and elaborate Russian propaganda is. These stories are fed in pieces over weeks, sometimes years. For example it took multiple years to establish and cement the idea of Nazi groups in Ukraine. Now if you start at this belief it's not that far fetched to believe these groups have no regard for human life whether it is their foreign or their own.

[itsoktocry]

>For example it took multiple years to establish and cement the idea of Nazi groups in Ukraine.

There are Nazi groups in the Ukraine, and they have a long history. Is this in dispute?

[madaxe_again]

My wife’s grandmother is an intelligent woman - an engineer, designed industrial machinery in the Soviet Union.

She’s a latvian citizen - but Russian speaking - so she consumes Russian TV and radio.

My wife had a tearful falling out with her a few days ago on the phone, as she’s absolutely drunk the Kool-aid - Ukrainians are all Nazis, we’re rescuing Russian prisoners, Biden is planning a nuclear first strike on St Petersburg, etc. etc.

A large swathe of the population grew up in a world where the state is the world, and everything external to the state is the enemy.

[ClumsyPilot]

I can confirm it does happen, usually older folks and housewives, but still it is real.