[hefferbub]

Like most engineering problems, smart design and rigorous execution make a huge difference.

Tesla understood that heat management is key to an EV, so they invested in designing a compact and elegant system (Google “octovalve”) to move heat wherever it was helpful to send it.

They also use intelligence to allow the car to optimize itself for charging. For example, you can use the Tesla smartphone app to have your car wake itself up and warm or cool both the battery and cabin while still plugged in. And if you use navigation to plan your charging stops, it will automatically precondition the battery pack as you are getting close for optimal charging speed.

Most of the cars that performed poorly on that graph were because of shoddy engineering by people who don’t understand the problem space.

That’s not a problem with EVs, it’s a problem with bad engineers and management who care about the wrong things.

[nickpeterson]

To be fair, they’re also secondary teams with limited budgets. There is a huge difference between having a founder ceo who is actively trying to make the specific product succeed vs being one of 40 teams producing a niche compliance vehicle. I’m honestly shocked how decent the ford/vw/Chevy vehicles are honestly.

[sixQuarks]

What's decent about the Ford/VW/Chevy vehicles? Have you actually test driven them?

[rootusrootus]

I bought my wife a Chevy Bolt and myself a Model 3 Performance. I don't have the Tesla any more, but we do still have the Bolt.

The Bolt has CarPlay. The screen is much nicer in the Tesla, but CarPlay brings a lot of additional functionality and flexibility.

The Bolt is lighter, more nimble, smaller. For city driving, it's really handy.

The Bolt has normal door handles that don't require any special movement to open them. Normal locks, mechanical glove box latch, full windshield wiper controls, a normal shift handle to select regen (good because my wife hates regen, I love it).

The Bolt has slightly stronger regen, especially with the paddles. And it has a saner regen-to-stop mode, which only functions in drive. Unlike Tesla, which makes you use the accelerator pedal to get the car to reverse down the driveway (which just feels weird).

The seats are crappy on both. I prefer cloth to vinyl, though. And I especially don't like the slippery vinyl on Tesla's steering wheel.

The Bolt is vastly cheaper. Like, half as much.

The Tesla charges much faster with DC fast charging. If you only charge at home they are identical in this regard.

Overall, I feel like the Bolt is a much, much better deal if you factor in the cost. The Tesla is much faster, has more range, heated rear seats, and it makes fart noises. Of course, it also has AP, which some people like.

The Bolt feels like a car that happens to be electric. The Tesla feels like a computer that happens to have wheels.

My wife would be happy with another Bolt when the lease on this one expires next year. I won't buy another Tesla without CarPlay and proper wiper controls, but my next EV will need to be faster than the Bolt. So I'm thinking Taycan.

The Bolt makes me wish that VW would make an electric Golf R. Same size, better interior, more power. Aside from getting screwed over by LG's flubbed manufacturing of the batteries, the Bolt really over-delivers compared to what I expected from it.

[jaclaz]

>The Bolt feels like a car that happens to be electric. The Tesla feels like a computer that happens to have wheels.

I like this, simple and effective.

[throwaway_4ever]

VW is making the ID.4, and next year they'll start at $35k. While it's bigger than the Model 3 and Bolt, it's still a crossover and not full SUV size. It's more value like the deal that the Bolt is, than like Tesla.

[JeremyNT]

They also make the ID.3, which is their successor to the e-Golf.

You can't have it in the US, though.

[sixQuarks]

Fair enough

[tapoxi]

I have a VW ID4. The infotainment software sucks but can be avoided for the most part by using CarPlay. The comfort, build quality, and turning radius (!!) are all exceptional.

[darknavi]

I swear my Model 3 has a turning radius of a Suburban.

[nickpeterson]

I own an id.4 for about 6 months now. It has problems but nothing insane, it was also a good 10k less then a model y, 20k less if you factor in autopilot. I think Tesla should be commended for getting electric cars to happen, and I hope they continue to improve, but I wouldn’t count ford, Volkswagen, or GM out yet, they don’t have to be better, just close enough to feel like preference. I really think we’re only 2-3 model years from them reaching near parity on evs.

[colinmhayes]

Fords electric cars have gotten very good reviews. I've driven the Chevy electric cars, and feel they'd be pretty popular among hacker news types. It's a normal car that happens to be electric, bringing all the advantages motors bring(silent, incredible torque), without feeling like the half baked feel Tesla can have.

[isignal]

It is not so simple. The engineering in a Chevy Volt is equally impressive. You are partly correct about amount of focus but you cannot compare a budget Nissan or Chevy to a Tesla that costs twice or thrice as much.

For example, GM can add a heat pump to improve their winter performance (Bolt) but if it is a new part that needs to be integrated into their assembly, there’s a cost to it that cannot be recouped. Batteries are already expensive. Tesla is less sensitive to costs as it had no profit pressures.

Startups and large companies necessarily need to have different thinking and that’s ok. When the giants turn around, they can quickly copy the upstart. Car engineering is not as complicated as rocket science.

[wedn3sday]

I just looked up the cost of a '22 Chevy Bolt, MSRP is $33k for the cheapest model. I payed $42k for a model 3, so its not like a tesla is 2x the competition, and saying "twice or thrice" is pretty disingenuous when the real difference is closer to 30%.

[isignal]

I was in the market for both vehicles. On ground prices for the Bolt did not approach Msrp. You had deals lowering them to 25-30k. And Tesla sales were typically not its cheapest models.

[throwaway_4ever]

They weren't selling for MSRP. Take a look at firsthand reports and people are getting them for $22-29k out the door and after tax.

[UltraViolence]

Bad engineering has nothing to do with it. Engineers have been making ICE vehicles for more than a hundred years and EV's are relatively new.

ICE vehicles have endured every known failure you can think of and car manufacturers have fixed all of these...over time.

It will take some time before all the snafu's with EV's are ironed out. Tesla is at the forefront since its more of a tech-company than a car manufacturer.

BTW: Volkswagen and Mercedes already have heat-pumps in their EV's.

[smegger001]

actually electric vehicles predate ICE but this guy named rockafeller who owned a really big oil company, and had a lot of this really volatile byproduct from his kerosene production he was looking for a use for...

[anaganisk]

And helicopters were designed since Da Vinci, but it took just a few centuries for them to become big because of Big Boat Corporates?

[jazzyjackson]

In 1909, there were thousands of Baker Electric cars cruising the streets of NYC quietly and at 35mph. You didn’t need to go much faster inside the city. 100 miles to a charge, good old fully recyclable glass lead acid batteries.

Gasoline vehicles eventually outcompeted them by reaching 60mph and having more range (sound familiar?) but the parent isn’t wrong about Rockefeller, cheap and abundant fuel came 2 years later:

> …growing electrification of lighting produced a drop in kerosene demand, creating a supply problem. It appeared that the burgeoning oil industry would be trapped into over-producing kerosene and under-producing gasoline since simple distillation could not alter the ratio of the two products from any given crude. The solution appeared in 1911 when the development of the Burton process allowed thermal cracking of crude oils, which increased the percent yield of gasoline from the heavier hydrocarbons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline

Jay Leno has an entertaining segment driving around LA in his restored Baker, he can tell you all about it, fascinating vehicle: (starts at 3:20)

https://youtu.be/OhnjMdzGusc

[rco8786]

Right, if anything the Tesla results prove that this isn't some inherent problem with all EVs...but rather a very addressable problem by the engineering departments.

[______-_-______]

Is Tesla this far ahead because they're the only mfr heating the battery? Or do all mfrs heat the battery, but Tesla has gone above and beyond with the octovalve?

[martythemaniak]

Active battery management is common to all EVs now - only the first gen Leaf and other weird niche vehicles like that don't have it. What Tesla does is an incredibly refined, efficient and integrated hardware coupled with great software. If you watch Munro's teardown of the new Model S, they basically state that they don't think it can really be improved.

It's basically head and shoulders above the competitions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1kHsd3Ocxc