[charlchi]

> with Kremlin propaganda portraying Ukraine as a proto-fascist, neo-Nazi state

Kremlin propaganda... I mean the US did (publicly at least)suspend military aid to Ukranian militias over their overt neonazi and white supremacist ties¹(these militias were then simply subsumed into the National Guard). Furthermore, the American military has even published a publicly available analysis of such forces in Ukraine², confirming their existence.

[1] wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

[2] ctc.usma.edu/the-nexus-between-far-right-extremists-in-the-united-states-and-ukraine/

Furthermore, see jacobinmags article for more comprehensive analysis of these sources³.

[3] jacobinmag.com/2022/01/cia-neo-nazi-training-ukraine-russia-putin-biden-nato

None of the sources I've used here are in any way "Russian", they are all by Western sources. If quoting the American military's own reports is spreading "Kremlin propaganda", well then I can't help you.

If you think there is no weight to the neonazi presence in Ukraine, you've clearly fell for western propaganda, which the linked article gives itself away as being.

[boardwaalk]

Are you implying that having a neo-nazi problems justifies the invasion? Because that’s what it sounds like.

There’s also some irony in dismissing this article as propaganda when all you’ve pointed out is that it, offhandedly I might say, called the situation Kremlin propaganda. Especially it since consists mostly predictions, an enormous amount of which have become true.

[charlchi]

> Are you implying that having a neo-nazi problems justifies the invasion? Because that’s what it sounds like.

Not that I condone war, or the invasion, but going off the cuff here: If we take the context of what Russia has said, and to facts on the ground, the 2 largest Russian military operations are currently surrounding Kharkiv and Mariupol, which have shown to be 2 of the largest bases for the neo-nazi and far-right militia recruitment in Ukraine.

> There’s also some irony in dismissing this article as propaganda when all you’ve pointed out is that it, offhandedly I might say, called the situation Kremlin propaganda. Especially it since consists mostly predictions, an enormous amount of which have become true.

I don't doubt the validity of the article's predictions. I doubted the articles dismissal of the neo-nazi and far right presence as being "Kremlin propaganda". When I hear this line, it automatically makes me believe the writer is either ignorant, or intentionally spreading propaganda, as this kind of dismissal does not coincide with reality. I'm just trying to inform people, because I see this narrative constantly, and it's worth fighting back against.

[avasylev]

> Kharkiv and Mariupol, which have shown to be 2 of the largest bases for the neo-nazi and far-right militia recruitment in Ukraine.

What are you talking about? Kharkiv and Mariupol are 95% russian speaking population. Before the Donbas events, these were very pro-russian cities, after Donabas the population learned what Russia is. The same amount of neo-nazis tehy can find in Minsk or St. Petersberg, may as well bomb these.

[dang]

You've unfortunately been breaking the HN guidelines repeatedly lately. Can you please not? More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30560868.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[charlchi]

We're talking about neonazi and far right militias in the ground that are being trained and funded by America. You clearly didn't read any of the sources that I linked(which are Western, and in some cases, US military sources). I'm not talking about dumb neonazis larping somewhere, we're talking about well armed and funded militias that are being used to fight a proxy war, killing civilians.

Regarding Kharkiv and Mariupol I won't discuss further as you clearly are more motivated by rhetoric, than talking about actual facts.

[dang]

Please do not cross into personal attack. We ban accounts that do that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[avasylev]

The statements you make don't pass basic sniff test. America training anti-russian militias in Kharhiv, would be like Russia training anti-american militas in Toronto. Did America trains some small % of overal ukrainian army - yes, can you find some wierdoes there - sure. But large scale anti-russian milita training in kharhiv is nuts (well was nuts until last week, now it's different story)

About rethoric vs facts. Is Kharhiv not predominant russian speaking population? In 2010 elections Kharkiv voted 70% for Yanukovych, very pro-russian candidate (wanted to unite Ukraine with Russia which resulted in hime being booted in the end). Today Kharkiv is resisting russian invasion for 7th day, surrounded 40km from russain border, is all this resitance by american trained neo-nazis?

[jmull]

The Kremlin propaganda isn't about the existence of of neo-nazis but about whether that justifies an invasion.

You are repeatedly conflating these two things, which leads to poor logic and conclusions.

[jacquesm]

There are more Neo Nazi's in Moscow alone than in all of Ukraine. Heck, in NL they are sitting in Parliament. Germany the same. USA the same. The whole of the West has a Neo Nazi problem. And we will have to deal with that, but open societies, freedom of speech and democracies are an ideal breeding ground for this sort of thing.

[JumpCrisscross]

If behaving like a Nazi justifies invasion, we need to plough some missiles into Moscow. Barrelling tanks into a resisting democracy is about as Nazi as one can get.

[mojzu]

You can find some white supremacist/neo-nazi fuckwits pretty much wherever you go, there are probably more then a few in most western militaries (and I wonder how many you could find in the Russian military). It's not grounds for overthrowing a democracy and murdering innocent civilians in the process, particularly when according to your sources:

  However, the mobilization of far-right groups in Ukraine does not extend to political success;

[Semaphor]

As your [2] says

> However, the mobilization of far-right groups in Ukraine does not extend to political success; in the 2019 parliamentary elections, they received little over two percent of the vote.

[charlchi]

These groups don't need political success when they are already subsumed into the apparatus of the military, as the sources I have linked to also point out.

[Semaphor]

[0] seems to be the sole source of this, and even it doesn’t make any claim of power within the military outside of being protected. And that is ignoring that there are a lot of words like "ostensibly" or "seemingly" when explaining why the author is correct. Which brings us back to 2%.

[0]: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/the-azov-...

[csee]

Ukraine are supporting the Azov Battalion out of sheer desperation due to constant Russian aggression. They can't afford to pick and choose who will help them in their defence. The presence of neo-nazis in the general population is actually much lower in Ukraine than it is in Russia according to polling. And there's no evidence of a neo-nazi presence in Ukrainian leadership.

[risyachka]

There is is nazi presence in EVERY country in the world. Also in US and EU. And no, Ukraine doesn't have the biggest one.

So what is your point?

[jskrablin]

Ukraine has a neonazi problem that has been thoroughly analyzed and presented in the West. That's not exactly news.

However (and that's a big however) majority of Ukranians are not neonazis. And their political leadership is certainly not neonazis with Zelensky being a Jew. That kinda puts the 'ol Soviet playbook about "liberating people from neonazis" that's being used by Putin in a weird light. Maybe he's going to liberate USA next, because you know, KKK?

[ranger207]

Yes, there are neo-Nazis in the Ukrainian military. There's neo-Nazis in the American military too, and the German military despite their extensive anti-Nazi efforts, along with neo-Nazis in the Russian military such as the Wagner group. Turns out militaristic authoritarians are attracted to military service wherever they are. I'm not saying that neo-Nazis in the military aren't a problem, but it's a problem like covid in the military is: something that's nigh inevitable as long as it exists, and something to be stamped out when evidence of its existence is found, regardless of which military it's in.

[cjrp]

There's a difference between neo-Nazis existing in a country (even being part of the army) and the country being a neo-Nazi state.

[rvz]

Well, you are not wrong to some extent. Even the mainstream media's 'blue eyes and blond hair' bias are playing into Putin's weak excuse to invade - making the media look like white supremacists. [0]

Just how they think wars cannot happen anywhere in the world and now they have been revealed to be and admitted white supremacists themselves on TV is just beyond me.

I'd say they are competing to be a true neo-Nazi.

[0] https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1497974245737050120

[kspacewalk2]

Azov is a single militia unit with plenty of non-neo-Nazi members, who joined because it's well equipped and has high morale rather than to advance some far-right cause.

[hef19898]

Funny, how the German Armed Forces can still buy weapons from the US then...

[pjc50]

The (present day) German Armed Forces have nothing to do with the Nazis?

[croes]

The German Armed Forces have a right wing problem. That's why a 100 billion Euro budget for these guys might not be the best idea without adressing the Nazi problem first.

[hef19898]

I used to be a huge proponent of getting rid of conscription in Germany. Turned out that conscripts, being by definition from all walks of life and political backgrounds, offset the right wing problem a lot. But yes, we need to get a grip on that. I wouldn't worry abut the additional money, so. After all we spend 20+ million on the restauration of a sailing ship. A new one goes for around 4 to 5. Maybe we burn that money on a carrier? Forgetting the aircraft?

[croes]

Maybe McKinsey gets most of the money

[hef19898]

I'd guess they'll get a huge chunk of it, for sure. They have to sell it well, so. The consultant scandal happened pretty recently.

[hef19898]

Oh, we had more than one scandal with neo-Nazis in the Armed Forces. One officer, who was flagged due to his master thesis by the French as a Nazi, posed as a refugee from Syria and tried to kill some politicians and blame it on refugees. One unit of the KSK was dissolved after some very Nazi-themed parties. One of their NCOs was found to have an underground depot of weapons and ammo in his garden.

And I could go on and on.

EDIT: In the official history of the Bundeswehr, neither the 3. Reich and the Wehrmacht nor the GDR does exist. Which is such a wasted opportunity to teach soldiers about the risk of serving oppressive regimes, facilitating genocide and not standing up for democracy. Anecdotally, I once passed their Officer Candidate Assessment center. In the welcome speech, an Air Force Major directly said something along the lines of "people with Antifa stickers on their bags can just drop out right away. You are not welcome". I kept my mouth shut, I did drop out after successfully passing due to other reasons, but it struck me as strange that, of all the armed forces, anti-fascists should be welcome in the German ones.

[Kelteseth]

> In the official history of the Bundeswehr, neither the 3. Reich and the Wehrmacht nor the GDR does exist.

Uhm, no?

> Which is such a wasted opportunity to teach soldiers about the risk of serving oppressive regimes, facilitating genocide and not standing up for democracy.

Also wrong. In the Bundeswehr soliders are allowed to disobey direct orders if it directly is in conflict with once conscience. See https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bundesverwaltungsgericht... (German)

[hef19898]

Yes, and the portion of history I mentioned isn't shown in the official Bundeswehr museum nor is it considered part of their tradition. Maybe I worded it wrong, than.